Cyclic as the moon and the taxes, recently some threads start talking again about high-level play, the missing official content, why the game breaks at higher level and so on. This will not be the thread that will solve everything, but a question came to my mind. Please remember that:
Reading some threads, I noticed that some troubles are made by the disconnection between tiers, powers and narrative: I think that in the SRD and DMG manual they are sometimes wrong, so for DMs making adventures above the 11 or 17 can be daunting, a lot.
I’ll report the SRD definition and my thought, please remember what I said above:
“Tier 1 (Levels 1–4)
In tier 1, characters are apprentice adventurers, though they are already set apart from the broader populace by virtue of their extraordinary abilities. They learn their starting class features and choose a subclass. The threats they face usually pose a danger to local farmsteads or villages.“
For this, I agree completely. The PCs are not so powerful, they are people that can be threatened by a band of goblin, navigating between cities is dangerous. Levelling in this tier should be fast in in-game time.
The adventurers should seek trouble. People of the cities usually avoid the places where adventurers go.
“Tier 2 (Levels 5–10)
In tier 2, characters are full-fledged adventurers. Spellcasters gain iconic spells such as Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and Raise Dead. Most weapon-focused classes gain the ability to make multiple attacks in a round. The characters now face dangers that threaten cities and kingdoms.”
With the spells until the 5th, a 10 level wizard should be more than a “full-fledged” adventurer: as in the rules excerpt, he practically can raise dead. Except of maintaining a low profile, people of this power are already the stuff of legend: wise rulers would keep this people close, those are already a game changer, in war and in everyday life of a city. The commoner would trait them already with respect and fear.
Also, in this tier, one can start not tracking food, water, ammo and lifestyle expenses. Even if it was a gold piece an arrow, they would have so much gold to buy rations, good lifestyle and so on. Yes, is the old “missing gold sink” problem.
Levelling in this tier should take at least a year of in-game time: going through old dungeons should give no more experience. What’s a goblin slayed if you have slayed two or three tribes before?
This is why wilderness should start counting here: there are dungeons with high level monster, high riches that are not only difficulty to reach, are the stuff of legends and forgotten by common people. But, as I said before, exploration is no more a problem, rules-wise.
Those dungeons should pose no problem everyday problems to common people in villages and city.
In a more story oriented campaign, troubles should seek the adventurers now.
“Tier 3 (Levels 11–16)
In tier 3, characters have reached a level of power that makes them special among adventurers. At level 11, many spellcasters learn reality-altering spells. Other characters gain features that allow them to make more attacks or to do more impressive things with those attacks. These adventurers often confront threats to whole regions.”
Now if one individual of this level exists, it’s more than stuff of the legend, is practically a demigod for common people. Wizards with their 8th level spells can make earthquakes, travel in planes, clone people. Some of the spells should be really hard to acquire, should be forgotten and forbidden knowledge.
Yet, wizard learn them by levelling up.
NPC of these levels should be more unique that rare. The Big Bad, one Ally, one reclusive sage... but no more.
No one in this world would attack that party. No mortal would try attack them. So, who would? Aspect of Gods, Demon, Devils, ancient evil sealed thousands of years before.
So, how a DM should create encounters for a tier 3 party? You need to import a lot of high-level monsters in a world that didn’t have any before. If I remember good, there aren’t a lot of “minions” tier 3 monsters on the official monster manuals, a bunch of “boss monsters” / ”generals” for previous tiers.
Also, resource attrition starts to break. The DM should be REALLY creative to consume those resources with encounters without making the expected encounter numbers: I know that the adventuring day can make as low as 3 deadly encounters (and in 2024 this was formally removed), but here the game start breaking for absolutely no official help on making good encounters.
“Tier 4 (Levels 17–20)
At tier 4, characters achieve the pinnacle of their class features, becoming heroic archetypes. The fate of the world or even the order of the multiverse might hang in the balance during their adventures.”
Gods, more than archetypes. Wizard can learn Wish, Meteor Swarm…
The only threat against those kinds of heroes would be world with new rules. No more material plane. The only way to have a meaningful game (and story) would be going to places were monsters are incredibly powerful but also can not go/don’t want to go to the material plane. This should be the ultimate showdown on a big bad own turf.
Dungeons can make their triumphal return, with new world new rules. To me, planes/planets (spelljamming) are the only possible answers. Powerful traps, gargantuan monsters, things that in the material plane are simply not possible.
And still, no official support for making those kind of adventures.
So, recapping:
This is why a “High Campaign Guide” is necessary. The game at high level “breaks” because it is missing some guidance. WotC don’t have this, and I don’t think third party books exists on creating and managing High Levels.
Let be honest: one of the motive of people don’t want to play High Level is because the campaign finish around level 8-9.
BUT… if a book would help DM to make high level campaign, with the simple advice to start a new one with 11 level PCs, wouldn’t be easier to make them? I know, it should be common sense.
- I’m a 5e player that only recently started playing the game
- I’ve never mastered something above the 10 level
- I love the game, but I don’t know it by heart, so spells and high-level PC features I’ve read but by no means I can pinpoint what something do
- Talking in a normal high-magic fantasy setting, like the Forgotten Realms
Reading some threads, I noticed that some troubles are made by the disconnection between tiers, powers and narrative: I think that in the SRD and DMG manual they are sometimes wrong, so for DMs making adventures above the 11 or 17 can be daunting, a lot.
I’ll report the SRD definition and my thought, please remember what I said above:
“Tier 1 (Levels 1–4)
In tier 1, characters are apprentice adventurers, though they are already set apart from the broader populace by virtue of their extraordinary abilities. They learn their starting class features and choose a subclass. The threats they face usually pose a danger to local farmsteads or villages.“
For this, I agree completely. The PCs are not so powerful, they are people that can be threatened by a band of goblin, navigating between cities is dangerous. Levelling in this tier should be fast in in-game time.
The adventurers should seek trouble. People of the cities usually avoid the places where adventurers go.
“Tier 2 (Levels 5–10)
In tier 2, characters are full-fledged adventurers. Spellcasters gain iconic spells such as Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and Raise Dead. Most weapon-focused classes gain the ability to make multiple attacks in a round. The characters now face dangers that threaten cities and kingdoms.”
With the spells until the 5th, a 10 level wizard should be more than a “full-fledged” adventurer: as in the rules excerpt, he practically can raise dead. Except of maintaining a low profile, people of this power are already the stuff of legend: wise rulers would keep this people close, those are already a game changer, in war and in everyday life of a city. The commoner would trait them already with respect and fear.
Also, in this tier, one can start not tracking food, water, ammo and lifestyle expenses. Even if it was a gold piece an arrow, they would have so much gold to buy rations, good lifestyle and so on. Yes, is the old “missing gold sink” problem.
Levelling in this tier should take at least a year of in-game time: going through old dungeons should give no more experience. What’s a goblin slayed if you have slayed two or three tribes before?
This is why wilderness should start counting here: there are dungeons with high level monster, high riches that are not only difficulty to reach, are the stuff of legends and forgotten by common people. But, as I said before, exploration is no more a problem, rules-wise.
Those dungeons should pose no problem everyday problems to common people in villages and city.
In a more story oriented campaign, troubles should seek the adventurers now.
“Tier 3 (Levels 11–16)
In tier 3, characters have reached a level of power that makes them special among adventurers. At level 11, many spellcasters learn reality-altering spells. Other characters gain features that allow them to make more attacks or to do more impressive things with those attacks. These adventurers often confront threats to whole regions.”
Now if one individual of this level exists, it’s more than stuff of the legend, is practically a demigod for common people. Wizards with their 8th level spells can make earthquakes, travel in planes, clone people. Some of the spells should be really hard to acquire, should be forgotten and forbidden knowledge.
Yet, wizard learn them by levelling up.
NPC of these levels should be more unique that rare. The Big Bad, one Ally, one reclusive sage... but no more.
No one in this world would attack that party. No mortal would try attack them. So, who would? Aspect of Gods, Demon, Devils, ancient evil sealed thousands of years before.
So, how a DM should create encounters for a tier 3 party? You need to import a lot of high-level monsters in a world that didn’t have any before. If I remember good, there aren’t a lot of “minions” tier 3 monsters on the official monster manuals, a bunch of “boss monsters” / ”generals” for previous tiers.
Also, resource attrition starts to break. The DM should be REALLY creative to consume those resources with encounters without making the expected encounter numbers: I know that the adventuring day can make as low as 3 deadly encounters (and in 2024 this was formally removed), but here the game start breaking for absolutely no official help on making good encounters.
“Tier 4 (Levels 17–20)
At tier 4, characters achieve the pinnacle of their class features, becoming heroic archetypes. The fate of the world or even the order of the multiverse might hang in the balance during their adventures.”
Gods, more than archetypes. Wizard can learn Wish, Meteor Swarm…
The only threat against those kinds of heroes would be world with new rules. No more material plane. The only way to have a meaningful game (and story) would be going to places were monsters are incredibly powerful but also can not go/don’t want to go to the material plane. This should be the ultimate showdown on a big bad own turf.
Dungeons can make their triumphal return, with new world new rules. To me, planes/planets (spelljamming) are the only possible answers. Powerful traps, gargantuan monsters, things that in the material plane are simply not possible.
And still, no official support for making those kind of adventures.
So, recapping:
This is why a “High Campaign Guide” is necessary. The game at high level “breaks” because it is missing some guidance. WotC don’t have this, and I don’t think third party books exists on creating and managing High Levels.
Let be honest: one of the motive of people don’t want to play High Level is because the campaign finish around level 8-9.
BUT… if a book would help DM to make high level campaign, with the simple advice to start a new one with 11 level PCs, wouldn’t be easier to make them? I know, it should be common sense.
