Timeline advancement vs. Reimagining

[Reaper Steve]

Disclaimer: I am not trying to troll or start a violent discussion. I am interested in constructive conversation and opinions on the subject.

I am overjoyed that 4e is 'reimagining' the D&D game from the ground up. I also like the glimpses of the new implied setting much better than any setting that came before it.

What gets me is that Wizards has stated that they are going to advance the timelines for those settings (100 yrs for FR, 2 for Eberron) to account for the changes. I've seen the rationales on the gleemax boards, and I must say I disagree and I think they are passing on a great opportunity.

I would be thrilled if they also reimagined these settings from the ground up. I understand it would upset some longtime fans, but at the same time, it seems to me that NOT updating the settings will hinder access to new players. I just can't buy storylines that attempt to rationalize rules changes, especially fundamental ones like how magic works, the demon/devil distinction, a whole new (awesome!) cosmology, etc. I think it would be much better to just make FR 2.0.

I got the 1st FR box the day it came out. It was awesome. But I haven't been interested in FR for over a decade. But a fresh reimagining of FR through the 4e lens...that would get my $$$ right away. A 4e book of 'the same 'ole FR' with 4e mechanics under the hood...not so much. Not when I see what FR could be if is was completely rebuilt embracing the 4e story elements as well.

On the other hand, Eberron is still new enough that a reimagining wouldn't be a heinous crime, either. I'm interested in Eberron and I've slowly started gathering sourcebooks and I can't help but think "Eberron would be so much cooler if it incorporated 4e in it's design versus being retconned.'

I applaud the choice to reimagine and redesign D&D from the ground up, but I'm slightly saddened that they don't seem to be taking that approach with with FR and Eberron. The good news for me is that it appears I can plently of fun with the implied setting.

Thoughts?

 

[Reaper Steve]

Ok, lesson learned...putting a no-I-am-not-a-troll disclaimer at the top of my entry is a super way to make sure no one touches it.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I'll post, I guess...

Actually, I agree. I think re-imagination is better than timeline advancement.

Timeline advancement does two things that are problematic. First, it by necessity creates a small change to the feel of the setting. Even if it is a small one, it is a change none-the-less. So long as the paradigm of thought is that setting should move forward, each change will add on to the last, until there is a significant change to the feel of the setting. Since this is an additive process over a long time, it can get... murky. It lacks the coherence of something which has been imagined (or reimagined) as a complete whole.

The second problem is that timeline advancement does not clear away any problematic material created in the past. By enacting change through forward movement, everything that happened before the latest edition is crystallized. It remains part of the canon, and has to be taken into account. Inevitably, bad material gets written for a setting, and unless the setting gets reimagined or rebuilt, it is impossible to clear away that bad material.

Long-term fans might not notice the problem as it builds up, but it makes things difficult for newer audiences. If you ask me, even 3E Forgotten Realms has far passed over the line in which a total re-imagination is necessary, simply because of too much stuff being embedded over the years.

I started with 3E, and the FRCS was a fairly visible product when I started, so of course I bought it. However, no matter how many times I read it, I found the book completely unapproachable. It was filled with so much detail, covering all the world-changing events across Realms history and all the characters and places that have been created for that setting over the years, that I didn't know where to start. I know that many Realms fans praise that book, but for a newbie to the Realms like me, I just didn't even know what to do with it all. So, I returned the book to the bookstore, bought a different D&D book instead, and never looked back.

A reimagining of the Realms, in which things are re-examined, and unnecessary elements are removed and cleaned up, would probably help it a lot. As it stands, the Realms is simply too detailed and messy to be easily approachable. My worst fear is that the next batch of setting books simply adds complexities and detail onto the existing setting books, and do nothing to maintain a clear and coherent feel and story (as in "what stories the DM will tell") of a setting.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

They should leave the Realms alone. I don't mean the rules stuff - I have no problem with them changing the rules stuff to fit the new edition of the rules - but the Realms themselves should not be changed just because it's a new edition.

I'm okay with Charakter X now being a Wizard/Fighter instead of a Wizard/Fighter/Bladesinger or something, but it should still be the Character X we know.

I don't want them to suddenly say "In the New Forgotten Realms, there never was a goddess of Magic, no Netheril, no gnomes, and Waterdeep is just a small hamlet near the Sea of Axes.

Of course, I also don't want them making a Divine Soap Opera and FUBAR the setting, like they seem intent to.

It might mean that some people will not start playing in the FR because they don't like it, but that's as it should be: If they don't like the setting, they should go for a different setting.

But this BS about peeving those who like the Realms like they were just to get new people is a really bad move.

I don't want Forgotten Realms: The Beginning, or Forgotten Realms: The Requiem, I don't want them to sell us a spin-off as the genuine article. Go make a new setting for those who don't like the Realms, but don't peeve existing customers just to get some new ones.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Of course, I also don't want them making a Divine Soap Opera and FUBAR the setting, like they seem intent to.

All of the previous history was just a dream…

 

[Kae'Yoss]

All of the previous history was just a dream…

And when Shar walks into the bathroom, she finds Bhaal standing there shaving?

 

[Baby Samurai]

And when Shar walks into the bathroom, she finds Bhaal standing there shaving?

Ha ha, yep, Bhaal, back by popular demand!

Dude, that was hysterical, I'm glad my mouth wasn't full when I read that.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I'm glad my mouth wasn't full when I read that.

I'll get you next time!

 

[BlackMoria]

The problem is the changes become a 'net zero' situation, which means that one group only is happy if the other group 'loses'

Let's use the 're-imaging' as the OP stated as an example.

That will attract new fans who now get an entry level into a new 'Realms' in which all the previous tropes and assumptions and more importantly, history are overthrown for the new paradigm or re-image.

The reasons the person is coming back to the Realms or looking at it for the first time time could be any number of reasons. Too much history to catch up on, too much bloat or detail in the setting, too many high level NPCs, the very high magic level, the hate of the novels .....yada, yada, pick your reason.

But here it is - to satisfy those concerns, it means that the long time fan get a kick in the nades because for him, the Realms is the rich history, the detail, and yes, for some, it is the NPCs or the high level magic, etc.

Re-imaging means the new fan can get the Realms free of the detailed history or the bloat and doesn't have to buy all the previous material to understand the setting.

Re-imaging means the old fan's collection of previous material is now invalid because the Realms is not the way it was. The detailed history is irrelevant because the reset button was pushed. The NPCs, the high magic level, etc is irrelevant because it is all reset. Therefore understand that many long time fans are not 'jiggy' with the changes.

One side wins because the other side must lose. I wish it wasn't so. I wish there was a win-win situation here but a 're-imaging' is a win-lose situation.

And before someone comes back with the 'make the Realms what you want' argument, just remember the argument cuts both ways. For those who have bailed on the setting or avoided it because of the so called bloat, the high magical nature of the Realms, the uber NPCs or whatever the reason was - why didn't they 'make the Realms what you want'? The argument cuts both ways.

I want a win-win change, not a win-lose change in which I have to be on the losing side because of my preference.