times they are a changen....

[jgbrowning]

Re: Re: Re: So let me get this straight...

If I understand what you're saying, you believe that 3E is more prone to min/maxing (which I think is a legitimate playstyle, btw, just not for me) and that, while improved, the system is now more vulnerable to the influcence such players thrust upon the game. I respectfully disagree.

I didnt say that min/maxing was bad, bad, bad. I do it. Everyone does it. The game PROMOTES it.

i was just saying that is seemed that min/maxing was the focus of every one of the 6 18year old guys i just finished DMing. so much to the point that it was NOT fun for them. And i wondered about others experiences along similiar lines.

I dont think there are "illegitamet" ways to play DnD. well maybe i do.. ifyour not having fun then i'd probably say your doing it wrong.

I have to laugh as i look through this thread and see the number of people who probably thought i was a "role-player" style DnD player. People often put their own prejudices on others to justify their beliefs or actions. It human nature, but i'd like it to be human nature to try and not do so.

joe b.

 

[Hecatol]

secondly, how many times must it be said, that just because one person is a powergamer and is 30 and another is a "role" gamer and is 17, doesnt have much bearing on wheather or not, in general, there can be decernable and measureable differences between the gaming styles of differtly aged persons as a whole. Can i prove this? no. i dont have the money nor the time.

Likewise, just because one person is a "role" gamer and is 30 and another is a powergamer and is 17 doesn't mean that those pesky young whipper-snappers are all power gamers. I am making an overall assesment looking at the people *I* have gamed with over the years, and I see no corellation between age and power level. Of course I can't prove that this is true of *all* gamers as a whole any more than you can.

thirdly, if you think people are not influenced by the environment they are in, well.. i can't really help you there. i guess one word sums it up. Culture. Also just because you're part of particular culture does not mean you share all traits with everyone else and i guess you can see how this ties in to my second point.

I haven't seen any posts suggesting that people are not influenced by environment. However, I don't see any evidence in those I game with today that their environments cause them to game any differently than the environment of the late 70s/early 80s.

 

[jgbrowning]

thanks

Likewise, just because one person is a "role" gamer and is 30 and another is a powergamer and is 17 doesn't mean that those pesky young whipper-snappers are all power gamers. I am making an overall assesment looking at the people *I* have gamed with over the years, and I see no corellation between age and power level. Of course I can't prove that this is true of *all* gamers as a whole any more than you can.

thanks for quoting what i said and paraphrasing it. of course it goes both ways.. thats what i said.. Also i mentioned just a little bit under my secondly section about how things dont hold true for *all* members of a group so im glad you agree with me there as well... ok here's one for you so i can be fair.

secondly, how many times must it be said, that just because one person is a powergamer and is 17 and another is a "role" gamer and is 30, doesnt have much bearing on wheather or not, in general, there can be decernable and measureable differences between the gaming styles of differtly aged persons as a whole. Can i prove this? no. i dont have the money nor the time.

see its still the same meaning.

Wizadru said a few posts ago... "And for the record: those videogames I grew up? They apparently failed to turn me into a violent zombie, put hair on my palms, stunt my growth or shorten my attention span. Hell, you try sitting through 'Ran' after drinking a Super Big Gulp. " so i think that qualifies for people saying they aren't influenced by their environment. of course he was using very silly examples to prove it point, but i think thats the gist of what he was saying. basically saying that MTG does not increase the chances that an individual will min/max anymore than violent games increases the chance of turning someone into a "violent zombie". (nice phrasing, btw)


joe b.

 

[Umbran]

I'll have to chime in with so many others - the things you are seeing aren't new. They've been aroundforever, and i don't think 3E really bent itself to meet these needs.

Newer gamers (no matter their age) probably have a tendency towards worrying about the mechanics first. The first question they need to ask and answer is "What can I do in this game?" That's an involved question, and pretty fun to work on findig the answer.

Actually, I'd thinkt hat if anything, the "bleeding" of munchkinism went the other way - from the tabletop RPGs into the CRPGs. I mean, the CRPGs are made to be a mirror of the tabletop games. The mirror isn't perfect, though. It reflects some parts of RPGs better than others.

Many folks say the new rules promote powergaming. We shouldn't confuse "making it easy" with "promoting". The same thing that makes a mechanic smooth and easy to use can also make it easy to powergame. So, that which makes it better suited for role-play can also make roll-play easier.

 

[Bodah]

do you think the prevelance of new players growing up on CRPG's and Magic style card games (cant remember that abbreviateion) has created a pardigmn shift in the style of DnD? Or do you think the deliberate shift towards, uhem.. munchkinism, represented by the 3e rules has had a greater impact.

I notice the type of behavior you speak of in my own group now and then.

We are all guys between ages 16-18. Often they try their best to roleplay, but occasionally they have that need to compete like the game is a race or something. Now and then they get down to spouting off stats about who's character would beat who's and why their items are the best. It can lead to hard feelings sometimes, which I feel can be avoided, espicially when the situation is first brought on by one character showing off. I am not sure if they just want to compete because we are teenage guys or because they just must have the most dominant characters.


Now to respond to the part of your post that I quoted. I dont think its either necessarially, I think its just a combination, being younger, and having a large video game influence. Alot of the RPG players I know learned about them from video games, so they have the same mentality when they come into a PnP RPG game. They think they must achieve raw power over anything else, best weapons, best stats, most money. I cant say that I like this way of thinking, and I wish some people I play with would change it. However I belive it comes back to being young, in the sense that its more of a phase, they'll grow out of it eventually, when they realize those things they are competing over are irrelevant when it comes down to it, and all thats relevant is the expeierence you have when you sit down at the game table, and the relationships you build.

 

[jgbrowning]

yep

Many folks say the new rules promote powergaming. We shouldn't confuse "making it easy" with "promoting". The same thing that makes a mechanic smooth and easy to use can also make it easy to powergame. So, that which makes it better suited for role-play can also make roll-play easier.

i pretty much agree with most of what you say, but i do think the game does promote powergaming. My wife got the 2nd run of the PH and in the back was a whole section about rules clarifications and and many boxes titled "powerplay". tricks that make your characters more effective. Here's a longer quote..

"Ranged attack spells + point blank shot + precise shot + weapon focus ... Any spell that involves ranged attack roll (flame arrow, magic stone, etc) benefits from the point blank shot and precise shot feats. { i view this as nice information, the kinda wow i havent been doing it "right" but then it continues} If you don't take them your losing an additional 5% to 25% of spells of this type to simple misses. If you use a lot of ray spells, Weapon Focus (ray) is another must-have."

That last part i have to say promotes powergaming. It says "your losing." As if you're not getting the full experience from your DnDing if you dont do this. yes this again is my interpretation, but i hope you can see how i could eaisly view it as such.

i know many people dont view that as powergaming, but i tend to, as it again influences people to view the rules as a method to improve the characters "phatness."

personally i think, and i'd like to hear from others here as well, that the game was playtested by a bunch of guys who were pushing the rules as much as possible. The main reason i say this is CR's. Many of them are based upon characters haveing access to certain items, abilties, etc. I think the guys who tested the game were all experienced players so the balance was shifted a bit up compared to as if the game whould have not been tested by such experienced gamers.

basically the monsters powers increased to provide a proper challange based upon gamers who were tweeking their characters to test the system..

well, what do yall think?

joe b.

 

[jgbrowning]

damn

Now to respond to the part of your post that I quoted. I dont think its either necessarially, I think its just a combination, being younger, and having a large video game influence. Alot of the RPG players I know learned about them from video games, so they have the same mentality when they come into a PnP RPG game. They think they must achieve raw power over anything else, best weapons, best stats, most money. I cant say that I like this way of thinking, and I wish some people I play with would change it. However I belive it comes back to being young, in the sense that its more of a phase, they'll grow out of it eventually, when they realize those things they are competing over are irrelevant when it comes down to it, and all thats relevant is the expeierence you have when you sit down at the game table, and the relationships you build.

the best part of, i guess, growing older is running across a young guy who beats the s*** out of your writing! Dude, you are very eloquent and thats not just because you agree with me....

It is hard to maintain focus while gaming for everyone, but honestly i found the best way to deal with my guys was to step in before it got outta hand and gently remind them what the goal of the game is. Sometimes they heard what i was saying and stopped hurting others feelings, sometimes they didn't. It takes time, cause, honestly it takes a long time for people to stop hurting their OWN feelings and usually longer for them to stop hurting others.

proud to meet you.


joe b.

edited for subject verb agreement.. see what i mean

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think tjasamcarl hit the nail on the head - if you think that players didn't used to powergame in previous editions, it's because the rules in previous editions were so poor. There were a huge amount of things in 2nd ed that you just couldn't do because the rules couldn't cover it. There was no semblance of game balance. There was no real character customisation.

And there were still powergamers, people who wanted their character to be the best. They exist in all genres, in all games and in all age categories.

Sometimes you get a group of them together, and they compete for top-dog. This usually happens in the testosterone-charged teens. It usually results in a group of disgruntled players.

I don't honestly think that it's becoming more prevalent, or that the tendancy is dependant on game systems, or upbringing or anything. It happens, and the game system can't stop it happening unless it's totally unconducive to any sort of rules-use(ie - the game has no rules at all, not the ideal solution...).

 

[jgbrowning]

It happens, and the game system can't stop it happening unless it's totally unconducive to any sort of rules-use(ie - the game has no rules at all, not the ideal solution...).

actually that sounds like a brilliant marketing strategy! lets make a book with completely blank pages, and a white cover that people could draw on and market it as the most "flexable" game ever!



joe b.

ps. we could sell it for only $18, cause we'd save bundles on the layout and artwork...

 

[LokiDR]

Min-Maxer

*stands up*
My name is Loki DR and I am a min-maxer. This is my first meeting of min-maxer anonymous. I have been powergaming for 13 years.

It all started on my old Apple IIe with those gold box games. Pool of Radiance was my downfall. Years later I moved on to CCGs, but I always wanted my chance at the table top. The first time I got to play, it was in 2e and I had a muliti-wielding Yuan-Ti who attacked with a sword on his tail as well as each hand. Then I found ShadowRun, and the piles of rules to min-max. Now I am a poor, lonely DM who runs a game.

Humor aside, I have been influenced by the CRPGs and CCGs. People point it out to me and tell me I make broken characters. My group even has a saying for it: "all your NPCs are demi-gods". I grew up on it, and it is a natural habit. I much prefer 3e because the rules are well thought out, I can see my limits more clearly.

Does this mean I am no fun? No. As it has been said, powergaming is fun, if that is what you like. If you like creating quirky character with lots of story and lots of abilties to play with, I am your DM. It all comes down to genre. James Bond vs Sherlock Holms. I do a decent job of James Bond, and would be lost in Holms. So long as I remember that, I can manage. I would not join a game with lots of roleplaying using a character built to destroy armies. Wrong genre. That would be casting Jackie Chan in a remake of "I Love Lucy".

For the record, excess is always bad. When a player was convinced I was screwing all the PCs over, he began to really rule lawer and cheat. That was the last session of that game. There is a time and place for it, but not at the expense of the game.

Also for the record, I hate the abuse of Rule 0. I DM. I use rule 0 every once in while. But when a player points out a rule I misread, I try to fix my mistake. I was in a game where the DM created, through the rules he said, a low level NPC he used en-mass to slaughter the party. I pointed out several rules violation, and his response was "I rule it to work that way." This is not what Rule 0 was meant for. Enough rant for one night