times they are a changen....

[sfgiants]

I think that the role of the internet (as has been previously mentioned) plays a big role. The communication amongst the gaming community points out more and more similarities of styles and leads us all to think more about our own games.

However, 3e does make it a little easier to min/max with all the feats etc out there (I hate min maxing, but as a player I always seem to do a little, I think it is natural. Mind you I am playing a wizard with an 8 strength, no offensive or defensive spells who uses a whip w.o. the proficiency)

 

[WizarDru]

I think Power gamers will be wary at least in my favorite campaign setting. Sure the Viligant is powerful but I'd like to see THEM deal with the likes of Dar'Tan and/or a pack of High Gorgon.

There he goes again.

 

[LokiDR]

The rules of 3e and d20 in general lead allowing characters to grow in any direction they want. You can calculate the statistical advantage of one class over another. Multi-classing is a LOT more open, which leads to more fexiblity.

I know a Living City player who played a specialty priest under 2e. When the conversion came, he became a sorcerer. Why? Under 2e rules, specialty priests were very overpowered. Under 3e, no one class is obviously better than another (which some argue for *cough*monk*cough*) but there is still an argument. There was no argument about those elements in 2e.

The d20 system has made whole lot of RPG much more math based. Now, you can see all the numbers. That attracts the number crunchers. I don't see CCGS as the problem. Games like Never Winter Nights streach the rules, and if you liked that the pace of most table top games will be too slow. I have had the misfortune to know gamers from when they start on, and I know that if a person starts really powergaming, they are much more likely to keep doing it, at any age, or just stop playing RPGs.

It has always been around. It always will. Now it is more of a science than an art. The age of innocence in powergaming has left.

 

[NoOneofConsequence]

The d20 system has made whole lot of RPG much more math based. Now, you can see all the numbers. That attracts the number crunchers.

Actually, I kind of felt like 3e reduced the math, at least in abstraction. Maybe I just remember Aftermath and 1e Champions, where the maths geniuses ruled the world.

It has always been around. It always will. Now it is more of a science than an art. The age of innocence in powergaming has left.

I kinda agree, but as first gen munchkin I always felt that the age of innocence was between 12 and 16, then some facist DM refuses to let you play your Fighter/Mage/Thief/Cleric 20/20/22/21 and the age of innocence is over.

 

[TiQuinn]

Re: Re: yep

I don't think a section of recycled Dragon material slapped on the end to replace a section now made superfluous really constitutes a major decision to try to shift D&D to powergaming. It sounds much more as a decision of convenience.

3rd edition is geared towards flexibility of the rules...more options for players and DMs. The reason it sometimes seems like a shift towards powergaming is because more rules mean more character combinations. Add to that the fact that not all of the material released by Wizards was balanced perfectly, and you have Prestige Classes or Spells or Feats that could be abused. Some people hate this and they scream out that the game is designed for Power Gamers! And the answer is no...it's not. It's designed for flexibility. However, the one can beget the other.

 

[barsoomcore]

I've read the hissy fits of Monte and others about how a GM should not just change what he doesn't like -- essentially "don't ban/change Scrying, or Polymorph Other, or Heal/Harm, or Whirlwind/Cleave/Bag o' Snails, or Commune, JUST because you don't like the effects! Work AROUND them!" And I have to say, it pisses me off.

This is I just HAVE to see. References, citations? Where have people been saying nonsense like this? Please show me.

 

[rounser]

References, citations? Where have people been saying nonsense like this?

It's the general principle of "Don't nerf character abilities just because they make your job as a DM harder." Like the idea of "No playing style is necessarily better than any other", it's a good rule of thumb to keep in mind to moderate yourself and stay liberal-minded, egalitarian and fair. But taken to it's logical conclusion, it begins to look flakey. Spells like detect-o-lie/alignment sculpt the nature of your setting, and the nature of your game, and not necessarily in the way you might wish. For example, it's difficult to do a high level Agatha Christie style mystery with such spells around when the party can just call Pelor and ask "whodunnit?"...

If you do nerf detect-o-lies/alignment, or scrying, contact other plane, or teleporting, I say make sure you do so from the start of the campaign, make sure all the players are cool with it, and if it impacts any classes (e.g. paladin, diviners etc.) make it up to them somehow. The "Don't nerf character abilities just because they make your job harder" rule goes mostly for DMs who get pissed off with teleport mid-campaign because the PCs flexed their muscles in a way the DM didn't like...so they put up anti-teleport fields everywhere, enchant dungeon walls to stop passwall, dimension door etc. just because a fairly earnt character ability annoys them. That's bad gamemastery, in a lot of people's opinions...

Piratecat's rather sagely advice is to let the PCs find out whodunnit (in fact, expect it), but also let there be no easy answer to the problem. Likewise, if scrying and teleporting are annoying and challenging for the DM, they can be just as annoying and challenging for the PCs when the campaign villains begin doing it to them...

 

[TiQuinn]

It's the general principle of "Don't nerf character abilities just because they make your job as a DM harder." Like the idea of "No playing style is necessarily better than any other", it's a good rule of thumb to keep in mind to moderate yourself and stay liberal-minded, egalitarian and fair. But taken to it's logical conclusion, it begins to look flakey. Spells like detect-o-lie/alignment sculpt the nature of your setting, and the nature of your game, and not necessarily in the way you might wish. For example, it's difficult to do a high level Agatha Christie style mystery with such spells around when the party can just call Pelor and ask "whodunnit?"...

If you do nerf detect-o-lies/alignment, or scrying, contact other plane, or teleporting, I say make sure you do so from the start of the campaign, make sure all the players are cool with it, and if it impacts any classes (e.g. paladin, diviners etc.) make it up to them somehow. The "Don't nerf character abilities just because they make your job harder" rule goes mostly for DMs who get pissed off with teleport mid-campaign because the PCs flexed their muscles in a way the DM didn't like...so they put up anti-teleport fields everywhere, enchant dungeon walls to stop passwall, dimension door etc. just because a fairly earnt character ability annoys them. That's bad gamemastery, in a lot of people's opinions...

Of course when Sean Reynolds, Andy Collins, and Monte Cook "nerf" the rules, they're called "variant rules"!

 

[jgbrowning]

im an unfriendly DM i guess

If you do nerf detect-o-lies/alignment, or scrying, contact other plane, or teleporting, I say make sure you do so from the start of the campaign, make sure all the players are cool with it, and if it impacts any classes (e.g. paladin, diviners etc.) make it up to them somehow. The "Don't nerf character abilities just because they make your job harder" rule goes mostly for DMs who get pissed off with teleport mid-campaign because the PCs flexed their muscles in a way the DM didn't like...so they put up anti-teleport fields everywhere, enchant dungeon walls to stop passwall, dimension door etc. just because a fairly earnt character ability annoys them. That's bad gamemastery, in a lot of people's opinions...

Whenever my PC's start to use/abuse their hard-earned abilties it take the same abilites and use it against them... then they feel the other side of the stick.

and when they come up with ways to prevent it, i use those against them too.

generally though, i just plan harder. NPC shouldn't be dumb (unless they're statted that way) and will be aware of "you meddling kids!" abilities.

I always found it interesting how PC complain when their abilities are used against them.

I've taken now to forewarning my PC's that want to use something out of the core books that i will allow my NPC's access to the same abilities. Make's em think really hard....

joe b.

 

[Droogie]

I would certainly be ridiculous to think that all the roleplayers who have played MtG or CRPGs ended up being munchkins.

That being said, I definetely have the feeling, if only from these boards, that there is a "MtG" mentality more prevalent than it used to be.

I'm not saying gamers didn't use to optimise their characters in 1E. But it seems to me it was less of a systematic endeavour. The 3E system certainly encourages that in the sense that it relies a lot on options and combinations (of feats, spells, etc.)

So I'm not sure the "MTG" influence is from the fact that people who played MTG approach the game that way or the fact that the 3E designers themselves decided to give MtG type options and combinations.

I feel its both, but moreso the latter. When I read through the 3e PHB for the first time, I could definitely feel the influence of "those card game people". Piles and piles and PILES of super-combo feats. Those power-play boxes in Drag Mag and the PHB...c'mon. Its obvious. All WotC needs to do is release each new feat on a card with a fancy illustration. Sell'm in packs. Bingo! sales shoot back up.

I will say yes, Joe B, style of play has been influenced by a certain card game and an RPG written by the makers of that card game. But as everyone else said, its no big deal. Once players realize that the possibilities of a pnp rpg are truly boundless, they stop playing the game like a card game or crpg and start having some real fun. If they prefer to remain number-crunchy-munchy, well, whatever you enjoy.