times they are a changen....

[Saeviomagy]

You're kidding about sherlock holmes, right? If he doesn't have an 18+ wisdom and charisma, max ranks in spot, search, track, sense motive, bluff, disguise, half a dozen knowledges and every other mystery-breaking skill available, while at the same time not having any real character history, and only one 'hobby' skill (violin), I'll hand in my power gaming theoretician (I don't actually PLAY my creations...) membership right away.

 

[hong]

You're kidding about sherlock holmes, right? If he doesn't have an 18+ wisdom and charisma, max ranks in spot, search, track, sense motive, bluff, disguise, half a dozen knowledges and every other mystery-breaking skill available, ...

Indeed, Sherlock Holmes would be superfluous in any mid- to high-level D&D adventure.

detect evil
speak with dead
detect lies
zone of truth
commune
contact other plane
scry
locate object
discern location
charm person
dominate person
etc.

With all that, who needs Gather Information +20 or Sense Motive +20?

As to the powergaming thing, I agree: powergamers and minmaxing have been around for as long as there have been games to minmax. On the other hand, I also think that 3E is an environment that's more conducive to minmaxing than before.

1 theory is that 3E, by codifying the ruleset to a degree not seen before in D&D, has had the effect of making it more attractive to players who like to play around with the rules. These players might have always wanted to powergame, but they were limited in what they could do when so much was up to the DM's discretion. Perhaps this was only because the rules were so darn vague before, but that's still how it was.

In general, the more rigid and categorical the rules are, the more the balance of power shifts towards the players. Conversely, the more that a ruleset leaves things to be interpreted by individual groups, the more it shifts towards DMs (who usually have ultimate responsibility for making rules decisions). This was also mentioned in Robin Laws' book, _Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering_.

In 3E, the rules are much clearer than in previous editions of D&D. This would have the effect of curtailing how much power the DM can wield. This in turn means that powergaming/minmaxing players have much more scope to indulge themselves, knowing that the extent to which the DM can clamp down on them has been limited.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Depends on what you want out of the game. If your group likes having a clear set of rules that say what the characters can and can't do, it's great, particularly if you've had experience with DMs who seem intent on crippling the PCs. If your group has problems with argumentative or spotlight-hogging rules lawyers, maybe it's not so great. It certainly won't help matters in this case.

 

[jgbrowning]

cocaine

You're kidding about sherlock holmes, right? If he doesn't have an 18+ wisdom and charisma, max ranks in spot, search, track, sense motive, bluff, disguise, half a dozen knowledges and every other mystery-breaking skill available, while at the same time not having any real character history, and only one 'hobby' skill (violin), I'll hand in my power gaming theoretician (I don't actually PLAY my creations...) membership right away.

you forgot that he loved his cocaine. dunno if that would count as a skill tho...

joe b.

 

[NoOneofConsequence]

A different theory.

First:

I've played three versions of DnD, plus numerous other systems, in my time and powergamers are always there.

That said, I think 3e seems more munchkinny for one very significant reason - the internet.

Years ago, in the gaming stores, at the cons, powergaming munchkins were soundly put in their place by the "serious, mature roleplayers" who wanted to experience what it was like to roll up a blind, hunchbacked halfling with a gimpy leg and no adventuring skills. I know this because I was one of the first generation of teenage munchkins.

Now, on the web, no one knows how old you are and teenagers can't get frozen out by snobby adults. In fact, given that most teenagers have more free time than most adults on average, they can take the lead.

I don't think munchkins are more prevalent, I just think that they're getting heard, when in previous editions they weren't.

PS I realise that I am equating munchkinism with teenage gamers. As a disclaimer, I don't think all teenage gamers are munchkin players, just that the majority of munchkins, when I was one, were teenagers.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I've found that the rise of CRPG's and card games has actually reduced the 'munchkinism' in the group I run for:

3 the players have had tendancies to build uber-characters and 2 of them have gotten into CRPG's and cards over the last few years. I've noticed that their focus in the pen and paper stuff has shifted far more towards 'Role' playing and creating interesting characters. They seem to to vent off their number crunching and 'I must WIN' tendancies in these other games... which seem to be far better suited to it.

Anyone else noticed this effect?

 

[Frosty]

We used to role-play a lot more in 2nd Ed than in d20. I have come to realise that in the old days we used to role-play the stuff not covered by the rules. We sort of had to roleplay large parts of the action in order to maintain the game. With d20 everything is measured, weighted, balanced and covered by the rules so less role-playing is actually necessary to maintain the game.

Nowadays it sometimes feels like we role-play just for role-playing's sake. Like we do it just to make sure we are not entirely munchkin. Back in the days you had a valid reason to haggle with a merchant (you could get the price down) but now you know that it's impossible to get the price down through role-playing (in the name of game balance). Another thing is that in the old days you could reason with NPC's. Nowadays you feel like you are challenging game balance by playing it out and leave the reasoning to a Diplomacy-check instead.

 

[jasper]

different editions, different games, different faces
but same personalities.
It not the power up magic shops from computer games gee how many magic shops did I come across in my early years
about the same number I hearing about now
It not the rules. Scum sucking rules lawyers breed or people mutate into them.
It not the game or edition because I hear the same problems with different game jargon.

The only difference is more online presence which allow the same personalities a greater audience.

 

[Henry]

Re: Re: Re: Re: So let me get this straight...

I was just saying that is seemed that min/maxing was the focus of every one of the 6 18year old guys i just finished DMing.

That statement alone speaks volumes in and of itself.

At age 18 when I was playing D&D, I was more interested in killing evil monsters and getting cool loot myself! And I was doing this with first edition D&D! Most of the players I knew at the time were more interested in this also!

In general, male teenage years in the U.S. is all about driving faster cars, getting cuter girls to check us out, and having bigger phallic symbols than those around us. Not every teen is this way, but most are - how do you explain pop culture? The emotional maturity of most high school seniors is still not past the point where being cooler matters. Roleplaying is only achieved when you can look at a character, point out the strengths AND weaknesses, and emphasize those into a character that is more 3-dimensional than a terminator cyborg. And at age 18, most people still aren't at an age to do this in their fantasy play.

 

[Umbran]

Re: yep

i pretty much agree with most of what you say, but i do think the game does promote powergaming. My wife got the 2nd run of the PH and in the back was a whole section about rules clarifications and and many boxes titled "powerplay". tricks that make your characters more effective.

I haven't seen the second printing PHB. The "powerplay" boxes sound like stuff from Dragon Magazine. You say this section is at the end of the book? Let me guess - it's right where the first printing had a section of monsters and DMG material so that ou could play the game a bit while waiting for the DMG and MM to be released?

I don't think a section of recycled Dragon material slapped on the end to replace a section now made superfluous really constitutes a major decision to try to shift D&D to powergaming. It sounds much more as a decision of convenience.

personally i think, and i'd like to hear from others here as well, that the game was playtested by a bunch of guys who were pushing the rules as much as possible.

I'm sure they were. That's the way you test rules.

You're a playtester - you've been told to test the rules. Do you test them by making a bunch of characters with average stats and role-play them sitting down in the Baron's tea party? What would you have to report? "Rules worked fine, we never actually had to use them."?

Of course not. The way to test the rules is to use them heavily and attempt to abuse them.

basically the monsters powers increased to provide a proper challange based upon gamers who were tweeking their characters to test the system..

My own experience suggests otherwise. The folks I play with aren't "powergamers". A couple of people in the group haven't even read the PHB, much less design their characters for maximum effectiveness. There's been little problem with CRs. The playtesting may have included rules-stress tests, but it seems to me things are balanced for a more moderate mode of play.

 

[Nightfall]

I think Power gamers will be wary at least in my favorite campaign setting. Sure the Viligant is powerful but I'd like to see THEM deal with the likes of Dar'Tan and/or a pack of High Gorgon.