times they are a changen....

[jgbrowning]

Has anyone else noticed the general change in tone in D&D. I'm referring to the munchkinesque.. (i know dont want to start that debate, but most of you know what im talking about) style of most 3E players?

I've been DMing for a long time and i've just finished DMing my second group for 3E. My first group was composed of my old friends.. all around 30 or so. My last group was a much younger group. 6 guys all around 18.

The style was completely different. The young guys were always very "manly", concerned that the other fighter in the group was more a badass than theirs or when the main fighter was stupid enough to drop is weapon infront of a teleporting demon and the thing picked it up and wouldnt give it back and then teleported away before they could kill it.... well it just completely ruined his day. Really, even though he had a good backup weapon he was upset that he wasnt going to do as much damage as the other fighter in the group. Also upset because he had tricked out to wield the two-handed sword and his backup was a nice bastard sword instead so he felt like he had "wasted" his feats.

I know alot of this comes from being young. I remember how i would get emotionally involved in stilly stuff too, but i think that it is a little more than that. let me explain.

i think these guys were raised on CRPG and on card games like Magic. I think they equate DnD, hell in fact i know it as they would often say "its like in magic when you .......", with the same mentality associated with a competative card game. They were all competing against each other and the fights for New Magic Equiptment were ridicules. The cleric was obsessed about getting the new armor even though if he did, he would have had a better AC than the fighters is a good example of some of the silliness that occured.

So the gist of my question you you all is this....

do you think the prevelance of new players growing up on CRPG's and Magic style card games (cant remember that abbreviateion) has created a pardigmn shift in the style of DnD? Or do you think the deliberate shift towards, uhem.. munchkinism, represented by the 3e rules has had a greater impact.

talk amonst yerselfs....

joe b.

 

[Wicht]

do you think the prevelance of new players growing up on CRPG's and Magic style card games (cant remember that abbreviateion) has created a pardigmn shift in the style of DnD? Or do you think the deliberate shift towards, uhem.. munchkinism, represented by the 3e rules has had a greater impact.

Talk about biasing your questions...

I think certain DnD players have always had a monty haul mentality and it has little to do with the edition being played and more to do with the age and goals of the players and the style of the DM.

 

[Crothian]

In playing I haven't seen munchkinism in quite a while. the only place I see it now is on line.

 

[Ristamar]

Re: Re: times they are a changen....

I think certain DnD players have always had a monty haul mentality and it has little to do with the edition being played and more to do with the age and goals of the players and the style of the DM.

...And also with how long/how often they've played D&D or other RPG's. Most people I've known, myself included, went through a Monty Haul phase in their early gaming stages.
So to respond to the original question, in a word, no.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Plus...

Are you saying that this "munchkinism" is a result of D&D 3E or CRPGs and Magic trading cards?

The only evidence I've seen of institutionalized Min/Maxing in 3E is the Power Play feature in Dragon mag and the back of the PH. Otherwise I agree with Wicht.

 

[jgbrowning]

ok

perhaps i did bias the question. sorry bout that, didn't notice.

what i was interested in was hearing of other DM and players expericences between playing with people who grew up playing DnD vers people who grew up playing CRPG and the card games.

I was wondering if my experience was unique or if it was representative of a greater whole.

thanks for the responses tho,

joe b.

ps. do you think people make character creation decisions about what they envision the character as or what is the most effective version of that character. my sister would often do things that were bad in terms of effectiveness because they were appropirate to her character. ie her fighters, if they came from a barbarian type sociatey would start out using a javelins and clubs vrs. bows and longswords. anyway i think yall get my drift. any change becuase of the new rules or still the way its always been?

edited to put in the ps.

 

[ForceUser]

How many of those guys played EverQuest? Quite a few I imagine. I don't think I ever heard the word "balanced" in relation to RPGs before I started playing EQ. In CRPGs, a game's balance of power between groups (players and monsters, players and other players) can make or break the dynamic of the game. If characters are too weak - or perceived to be too weak - against other players or monsters, then the CRPG has a problem. If the CRPG is a MMORPG, it can be a big problem as frustrated players denounce the game, the company, the overpowered classes, and life in general as being unfair. The companies then hustle to "balance" the player characters against their peers in an effort to provide a more rewarding player experience. A CRPGer is primarily concerned with gear, stats, tactics, and raw firepower, and actual roleplaying takes a backseat. Hell, it's not just in the backseat, it's in the trunk under the spare tire.

This is the RPG environment that your players grew up in. Yep, it's powergaming. They probably can't even understand the concept that optimization of assets is not mandatory. If they are not optimized for combat as determined by an immediate consensus of their peers, not only are they behind the perceived curve, but they could actually be ridiculed by their peers for being behind the curve (especially in MMORPGs such as EQ). Believe it or not, it's good old fashioned peer pressure driving them to optimize their mobile assault platforms (sorry, characters).

The only advice I can give is A) let your players have their fun and B) try to create a roleplay environment where combat is not the most favorable solution to all conflicts.

Good luck

 

[Buttercup]

Both my husband & I came to D&D via CRPGs. And neither of us has munchkin tendencies. I'm not sure why you think the 3E rule set is inherently munchkin, but I beg to differ.

IMC, I have one two players who have been playing for many years, one who has been playing for a year, my husband, who has been playing for 4 months, and a new player joining us Sunday who is also an old hand. There are no munchkins at my table. None of them have magic items other than healing potions, and we once spent a whole session without any combat! This session may well be another like that.

I think you can turn any rule set into a munchkin fest, or not.

 

[Apok]

When every gamer in the world can get together and decide on a precise and official meaning for the word "munchkin" and "munchkinism" in relationship to RPG's, I shall put forth an intelligent and concise argument, either in favor or against the view you present.

Until that time, "munchkin" is a term that means either the little people from the Wizard of Oz movie or those doughnut holes served by Dunkin' Donuts. Because of this, the question you pose makes no sense to me.

If you are referring to the fact that D&D3e seems to be a game centered less around building an epic campaign of heroic deeds and more about accumulating "Phat 700t" and "pimping out" one's character, I can only say that it is all in how one chooses to play the game. However, one cannot ignore the fact that the D&D3e system is built around the concept of improving one's character through the gain of more powerful magical aids. Indeed, the very balance of the system at higher level play hinges a great deal on the kinds of equipment and resources the character's have. Does this detract from the overall experience and turn D&D into a Monte Haul-fest of power-up accumulation? Again, I think it depends upon who is playing the game.

Ultimately, it is up to the DM and the players to get together and discuss what each person wants out of the game. This way, it becomes possible to facilitate the best gaming experience for everyone. Since all people are individuals with different likes and dislikes it can be difficult to reconcile different people's expectations but I have faith that like-minded people will band together to create and play the games they most enjoy.

 

[jgbrowning]

munchkin

i dont care about munchkins and their prevelance or lack of in your games. i was trying to see if people thought the difference between players who have never played 1st or 2nd edition and those who have, makes a difference upon the min/maxing effect.

thanks for the replys but im looking for people who have familiarty with all editions of DnD. I was wondering if my perceptions were unique or if others have noticed the same or if, as im sure many will think, i tend to just be full of bull pucky.

joe b.