To balance high level mages.

[Broken Fang]

I wasn't going to comment but oh well. Wizards are still powerful at the levels you are talking. Multiple day duration buffing spells, protection spells, etc are possible. The smart Wizard will not wait to cast these again once they end but prior to them ending so they are in effect "always on". This can make it very difficult for the Fighter to get the jump on the Wizard. Contingency is one of the best spells out there as Xeriar just pointed out. I'm not saying they can't be taken out but don't think some 20th level Fighter is just going to walk up and do it...not w/o some serious magic and prep. If your assuming he can do this then don't assume the Wizard (who makes these magic items) isn't going to know of this possibility!

 

[GWolf]

jsut think of them at 1st level and now think of how many there are now a 20th level? GEt the point? even if they are very powerful, they are the best of the best or extremly lucky and deserve it.

 

[Numion]

Limited Wish can cast a triple-length Death Ward. If no friendly cleric is handy, it can be a necessity...

Also, many campaigns reduce the power of Death and Ressurection spells, so a 'Contingency: Heal (cast via Limited Wish)' becomes a viable option to a failed save.

Didn't limited wish have an xp cost? I believe it has, thus making it probably not worth it.

 

[Derren]

Yes, but it costs only 300 xp which isn´t much for a heal.

 

[Hammerhead]

Mages rock at low levels too. I mean, color spray, sleep, mage armor, etc.

Personally, I find that mages are very good at high levels, but no more so than any other class. D&D is a team game, and it requires an adventuring team to work; i.e., the cleric hits "evil wizard" with a D. Anchor, the rogue makes him eat a few sneak attacks, fighter partial charges, etc. 1v1, yes a wizard will probably beat a fighter. However, the fighter can use an IOUN stone of spell storing to use anti-magic shell, and try to get the skill while his protections are gone in the antimagic shell.

My real problem is that they're the equal (at least) of high level fighters in combat. And, with access to scrying, diviniations, fly spells, teleportations, etc., they are so much more useful in noncombat situations as well. That's my problem.

 

[Xeriar]

Mages rock at low levels too. I mean, color spray, sleep, mage armor, etc.

My real problem is that they're the equal (at least) of high level fighters in combat. And, with access to scrying, diviniations, fly spells, teleportations, etc., they are so much more useful in noncombat situations as well. That's my problem.

A fighter can always swing his sword. It's his natural state to beat things to a pulp.

This is not the case with a wizard - his spells available at any given point in time are quite limited.

A fully prepared wizard is going to be one tough bastich. A fighter facing a wizard who knows he's coming is like a wizard facing a fighter in a dead magic zone.

You can always come up with weird balance situations that are horribly skewed one way or the other.

 

[Grommilus]

First off, I'd just like to say that Contengancy can only prepare a level 6 or lower spell, that limited wish is in fact level 7, and heal, a level 6 cleric spell, cannot be duplicated by limited wish, as it can only replicate up to level 5 cleric spells.

(enter my epic level true necromancer lich villian who in fact does have a contengency harm, cause he's undead ya know, oh, and te hide life spell, making him effectivly invincable)

another dasterdly tactic with contengency is to use contengency teleport with the trigger being a command word, or some other free action to pull off. =)

that solved that.

As to the problem with Time stop, make it so that any spells cast while in the effect of the spell cannot affect anyone but the caster, and he's stuck to using Delayed spells (which is often still enough to kill the fighter) However, a fighter that knows he's gonna be fighting a wizard could prepare himself with magic items for this purpose, such as a ring of spell turning =) we are talking epic fighter, so he's got the cash, and probably the contacts to pull it off. Ion stone of animagic is pretty nifty too =)

 

[Tzarevitch]

How are high level mages to powerful? In 2e they were but in 3e they had their teeth pulled.

It sound like your problem isn't with the mages (or spells) but with YOUR strategies for dealing with them... all three "problems" you've sited can be nixed by a held action and dispel magic... and there are MANY other ways to work it as well, just think like the players would.

How did they have their teeth pulled? They have gained the ability to cast multiple spells per round at trivial cost through the "haste" spell. At higher levels they can cast even more in a round using Quicken Spell and the Uberspell called "Timestop" and then teleport away.

A fighter gains 1 extra attack every 6th lvl and this caps at 4. Note the theoretical maximum for a mage is 15 spells in a round (1 Quickened spell, 1 normal spell, 1 "hasted" spell in a "timestop" that gives the maximum of 5 rounds). At high levels and without magic of his own, the fighter will be lucky to hit the mage (through "blink" or "mirror image") and even if he does he will be lucky to do damage (through "stoneskin", "protection from the elements" and similar spells).

A high level fighter with minimal magic simply cannot deal with a high level spellcaster unless he gets the drop on him AND catches him without protection. The suggestion that the previous writer is using bad anti-spellcaster tactics makes no sense. The tactics you are suggesting either don't work against high level spellcasters or are impossible for a fighter to pull off on his own without magical help.

The often cited "hold-action-then-strike-caster-when-he-casts" tactic does not work very well in 3e. All the caster has to do is move away from a melee combattant. Missile combattants are harders for a caster to evade but missiles rarely do that much damage and they are easier to ward against. Even if you hit, any caster worth his salt will have maximum concentration, probably an item to further boost concentration and a protective spell (like "Stoneskin") and then will continue casting anyway and I have never met a pure fighter who can cast "Dispel Magic" without a magic item to do it for him.

The counter I came up with is to add a new feat called Sovereign Soul. Its prerequisites are Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will and a minimum character level of 10. Characters with this feat gain a spell resistance equal to 11+ HD to maximum of 31. This tends to allow fighters (who can afford to spend feats for it) a good chance to shrug off some magical effects. (Monks get this ability for free instead of their lame SR).

A second feat that I added called Penetrating Strike allows a character to penetrate DR of +1 per 5 points of BAB (meaning that your penetration is less effective with subsequent swings). This only works against corporeal creatures. Its prerequisites are Power Attack, and Sunder. (Monks get this ability for free instead of their lame penetration ability.)

I have found this tends to allow a high level fighter or monk a chance to get close enough to do lethal damage to a spellcaster.

Tzarevitch

 

[animesuperman]

I have to agree that high level mages are difficult to battle when compared with a high level fighter but in the end when we start talk in the scale of epic combat your high level cleric is perhaps the worst of them all. One harm and any character is just about done for, and those nifty fortitude save spells do in the high level mage.

Now i agree that time stop is a devastating spell, remember that the wizard is limited in the spells he can cast at 9th level. If we use avgerages, an epic mage hasted in timestop could easily get off a few energy drains and mixed with enervation easily kill a character.

However, if you look at an epic rogue who's hasted. Assume the rogue goes first. He uses his hasted action to perform quicker than the eye, he has combat tacticion as well. The rogue makes a bluff against the wizards spot (guess who wins this?) then gets a round of sneak attacks and a free combat tacticioan attack. You have one dead wizard, even with stoneskin.

Your only real problem is a fighter who may not deal enough damage to kill the mage with stoneskin. But not every mage is going to get stoneskin up in time, and if the fighter has a +5 sword the mage is done for.

Basically it's a matter of who goes first and tactics. And yes a mage can run away, it's what he's good at, deal with it and find ways around it. At 20th level every class has it's advantges it's a matter of pressing them before you get killed.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Lots of problems that look daunting on paper disappear if you recognize that it is a game of teamwork.

There are a lot of creatures that can flat out kill a wizard in a single round. It actually get much worse at higher levels where Improved Grab and Constrict are pretty common.

Try running a party consisting of only wizards and sorcerors if you do not believe me.