Tome of Battle: Bo9S classes in actual play?

[Mort]

I performed substantial playtests using full-fledged Warblades and Swordsages, and they whipped the floor with all other comers (these were done alone and in groups against a variety of opponents).

But I do like the system and I had players interested in it as well, so I allowed a one-school Swordsage (as long as the one-school isn't White Raven---::shudder:: soooo broken ::shudder:. He wound up being a worshipper of Levistus who used a modified version of the Desert Wind school (modified to change all fire to ice). At level 15, he handily soloed a CR 18 Tulani Eladrin (his only aid being a Dimensional Anchor to keep it from fleeing), although he did have to use his once a day instant recovery after the eladrin used its once a day Heal. Also, in a fight against an Aspect of Mammon, he was not outshone by anyone except the crazy Iajutsu Master, and then only because of the first round's insane Iajutsu damage. Even the Shou Disciple who dual-wielded lightblades for eleven attacks per round (using the PHII feat that turns crits into Sneak Attacks to deliver 4d6 Sneak Attack on a substantial number of hits as well) was about on par, and the one-school Swordsage was significantly stronger than the Paladin of Freedom / Rogue / Spymaster, the Arcane Trickster, the modified Marshal (buffed to give her full BAB and a few other abilities, as Marshal is normally too weak), or the Monk.

Interesting. I looked over the white raven manuevers and, other than white raven tactics, none of them look that bad; especially for an individual (I can see how the white raven manuevers work well in a group). What exactly did you find was broken (again other than white raven tactics, that ones obvious).

 

[FireLance]

But I do like the system and I had players interested in it as well, so I allowed a one-school Swordsage (as long as the one-school isn't White Raven---::shudder:: soooo broken ::shudder:. He wound up being a worshipper of Levistus who used a modified version of the Desert Wind school (modified to change all fire to ice). At level 15, he handily soloed a CR 18 Tulani Eladrin (his only aid being a Dimensional Anchor to keep it from fleeing), although he did have to use his once a day instant recovery after the eladrin used its once a day Heal.

I don't have the tulani eladrin stats with me right now, but based on the ghaele in the SRD, don't eladrin have cold resistance? If so, what cold-altered Desert Wind maneuvers did he use to defeat the eladrin? What did abilities did the eladrin use against him?

 

[Banshee16]

I don't have the tulani eladrin stats with me right now, but based on the ghaele in the SRD, don't eladrin have cold resistance? If so, what cold-altered Desert Wind maneuvers did he use to defeat the eladrin? What did abilities did the eladrin use against him?

I'm looking at the stats right now..AC 36, 4 iterative attacks starting at +27, almost 200 hp average, Cold Resistance 10, and a whole whack of lethal spell-like abilities, ranging up to lvl 9 killer abilities. I'm not sure how a lower-level character could defeat it so easily. Any competent DM could use one to do a lot of damage to most entire parties.

I *did* notice something with the stats though. In 2nd Ed., all the eladrins (except maybe the Coure) had spell-like abilities, plus spells as Cleric of X level. Tulani were the most powerful of all. In 3.5, Firre and Ghael have Cleric spells, but the Bralani, Tulani, and Coure do not. The Shiere appear to have been eliminated. That definitely affects the Tulani's power, but I'm wondering if this is an oversight.

By the same token, in 2nd Ed. all Eladrin had Alter Self as a spell-like ability, which was the basis for the Veil, which was a major part of the description of the race. In 3.5, I think the Ghaele gets Disguise Self, and that's about it.

Maybe Rule 0 time.

Banshee

 

[Rystil Arden]

I'm looking at the stats right now..AC 36, 4 iterative attacks starting at +27, almost 200 hp average, Cold Resistance 10, and a whole whack of lethal spell-like abilities, ranging up to lvl 9 killer abilities. I'm not sure how a lower-level character could defeat it so easily. Any competent DM could use one to do a lot of damage to most entire parties.

I *did* notice something with the stats though. In 2nd Ed., all the eladrins (except maybe the Coure) had spell-like abilities, plus spells as Cleric of X level. Tulani were the most powerful of all. In 3.5, Firre and Ghael have Cleric spells, but the Bralani, Tulani, and Coure do not. The Shiere appear to have been eliminated. That definitely affects the Tulani's power, but I'm wondering if this is an oversight.

By the same token, in 2nd Ed. all Eladrin had Alter Self as a spell-like ability, which was the basis for the Veil, which was a major part of the description of the race. In 3.5, I think the Ghaele gets Disguise Self, and that's about it.

Maybe Rule 0 time.

Banshee

Yes, the Tulani had Ice Resistance 10--that's why it was so impressive a victory: He would have done ridiculously more against something with no Ice Resistance, but I would have considered it an unfair test to say that he can win against something that is the optimum for him to fight--I wanted something that was actually somewhat strong against his attacks, though not immune to ice either, since obviously he won't win against that.

Fire Resistance stance gave him immunity to the Meteor Swarm (except the bludgeoning damage). That surprised the heck out of the Tulani and used up its best attack for basically nothing. After running out of better attacks, it later used Improved Invisibility and Haste and whacked around with its Brilliant Energy sword, but it couldn't even hold a candle to the Swordsage regardless. He first used the manoeuvre that sets up a field of ice, and then he was combining his dual-wielded +1 Cold Iron Icy Burst Rapiers (aligned Evil) with Mark of Stygia (+4 to hit and damage if both combatants are fighting on ice, which the tulani didn't know he had) and/or (when he had it readied) the level 7 manoeuvre that gives all his attacks 3d6+16 extra cold damage (if he didn't have this ready, he also liked the manoeuvre that gave him an extra attack paired with his Mark of Stygia ability to add 2d6 ice damage to each attack). When the Tulani tried hit-and-run with ranged attacks to deny him the full attack, he countered with the counter that warps him right next to the enemy and unleashed the full attack anyway.

Granted, the Tulani's AC was quite high, so the Swordsage was quite lucky to hit with even 3 out of 6 attacks (his best round was 3 hits (1 of which was a crit) out of 6 using the 3d6+15 manoeuvre to deliver I believe ~60 cold damage and 47 regular damage (it was 107 damage in total after Cold Resistance, and I know the cold damage was at least 90 before Cold Resistance). Mr. Tulani had to Heal after that, and the Swordsage eventually had to use a healing potion due to the Tulani's use of Heal, but he still won.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Interesting. I looked over the white raven manuevers and, other than white raven tactics, none of them look that bad; especially for an individual (I can see how the white raven manuevers work well in a group). What exactly did you find was broken (again other than white raven tactics, that ones obvious).

Since most of the White Raven things are designed for groups, it isn't broken alone, honestly (the one-on-one playtests were less enlightening to me than the group ones, but I wanted to see just for fun). However, in an actual game, its going to be in a group, in which case tactics and Warmaster's Charge are both insane. Admittedly, Warmaster's Charge is a 9th-level manoeuvre, but it is substantially more powerful than any 9th-level spell, and even moreso if you take the Leadership feat and bring along random flunkies. Warmaster's Charge with enough people is an automatic hit (and even with eight people, if it doesn't hit, you weren't going to have a dream of hitting that guy on a normal attack) for everyone who charges for insane amounts of damage that also stuns the enemy for one round and lets you pound on them. What's worse, since it is an immediate action for everyone except the Warblade, this means that you also have to deal with two full attacks made against the stunned target by all the people who just charged (and one full attack from the Warblade) before the stunned guy can go. A Great Wyrm Red Dragon can only count its blessings that it is immune to stunning, since this manoeuvre is likely to put it on death's door (particularly if the people in the group with good attack bonuses, like the Warblade, turn that to-hit bonus into Power Attack boosts on top of the +50/+25).

I'm not one of the guys who's out shouting about Inferno Blast either. Yeah, it's 100 damage and that's more than a Meteor Swarm, but it's a fair manoeuvre. Warmaster's Charge is not.

So remove those two and White Raven is fine--I even offered that (although normally Swordsages can't pick White Raven without a feat, I know), but nobody wanted to play a one-school Swordsage that could never get a 9th-level manoeuvre, and I don't blame them. Maybe I'll come up with a nerfed version of Warmaster's Charge eventually.

 

[FireLance]

Actually, it sounds like he just had good synergy with the Mark of Stygia (I'm guessing it was from FC II). Without it, at BAB +11, +1 enhancement bonus to hit from weapon, -2 penalty to hit for dual-wielding rapiers (assuming Two-Weapon Fighting and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting), and possibly +7 bonus to hit from Strength or Dexterity, his net attack bonus of +17 would have required him to roll a 19 or 20 to hit the tulani's AC of 36.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Actually, it sounds like he just had good synergy with the Mark of Stygia (I'm guessing it was from FC II). Without it, at BAB +11, +1 enhancement bonus to hit from weapon, -2 penalty to hit for dual-wielding rapiers (assuming Two-Weapon Fighting and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting), and possibly +7 bonus to hit from Strength or Dexterity, his net attack bonus of +17 would have required him to roll a 19 or 20 to hit the tulani's AC of 36.

He did indeed have Oversized TWF. He also had I believe +9 from Dex, netting him (with Mark of Stygia) somewhere in the ballpark of +23. He may have had something else, perhaps Weapon Focus (but I think he didn't have that--he was feat-starved even with his Faustian pact). This is why he only hit with three attacks once the entire fight, and usually hit with two or even one.

Frankly, I don't think he was even building it optimally, IMO--I'd have gone for a higher attack bonus with just one rapier and then used the powerful one-hit Strikes, but his build worked surprisingly well too. We also had a normal Desert Wind Swordsage in the same game a little while before that (who built it like I would), and she managed to handily solo (at level 15 also) ten level 10 Fighters (sword-and-boarders) and a level 15 Fighter (who dual-wielded Battle-Axes). This was mostly because the level 10 Fighters couldn't hit very easily and she kept moving around to stop the dual-wielder from getting full attacks.

 

[FireLance]

He did indeed have Oversized TWF. He also had I believe +9 from Dex, netting him (with Mark of Stygia) somewhere in the ballpark of +23. He may have had something else, perhaps Weapon Focus (but I think he didn't have that--he was feat-starved even with his Faustian pact). This is why he only hit with three attacks once the entire fight, and usually hit with two or even one.

Frankly, I don't think he was even building it optimally, IMO--I'd have gone for a higher attack bonus with just one rapier and then used the powerful one-hit Strikes, but his build worked surprisingly well too. We also had a normal Desert Wind Swordsage in the same game a little while before that (who built it like I would), and she managed to handily solo (at level 15 also) ten level 10 Fighters (sword-and-boarders) and a level 15 Fighter (who dual-wielded Battle-Axes). This was mostly because the level 10 Fighters couldn't hit very easily and she kept moving around to stop the dual-wielder from getting full attacks.

+9 Dex bonus at level 15? That's high. He must have started with a 19 or 20 Dex, or had some inherent bonuses, and then pumped in his three attribute increases and got +6 gloves of Dexterity.

Actually, I think Desert Wind works best with multiple attacks, because of the three energy damage boosts. I don't have the book with me right now, but I don't recall a lot of high-damage single attacks, unlike Diamond Mind.

 

[Rystil Arden]

+9 Dex bonus at level 15? That's high. He must have started with a 19 or 20 Dex, or had some inherent bonuses, and then pumped in his three attribute increases and got +6 gloves of Dexterity.

Actually, I think Desert Wind works best with multiple attacks, because of the three energy damage boosts. I don't have the book with me right now, but I don't recall a lot of high-damage single attacks, unlike Diamond Mind.

I guess Desert Wind works better with single attacks if fighting multiple opponents because of all the great area spells and the attack-everyone-you-move-past one. He probably picked the better build for a solo fight exactly because of those three energy damage boosts. As to the Dex bonus--he indeed started with 19 or 20, pumped all the boosts into it, and spent his last pennies on the +6 gloves of Dex.

Overall, I was quite impressed with the concept of the Bo9S mechanics, some of the most innovative I'd seen and well-thought-out mechanics-wise. However, the balance of the ensemble packages they offered using the mechanics was possibly the worst in any book that WotC has ever put out since 3.5 began (excepting Complete Divine if you include the Dweomercheater of Mystra from the web enhancement--I'll forgive Complete Adventurer for Wraithstrike).

This may mean nothing to anyone but me, but the Warblade class proved in playtest to be balanced with (and sometimes better than) the gestalt classes I wrote up for my Neospelljamming setting (which are often better than playing a normal gestalt because I give them extra synergistic abilities). That said, since I like to tinker with things, it would be easy for me to buff all the other classes so that they could play nicely with the full Bo9S classes or to (as I did in this case) nerf the Bo9S classes until they play nicely with the normal classes, depending on if I want a high-power game or a more normal game. The sad thing is for GMs who are excited by the ideas in the book but don't have the time or inclination to tinker with the rules as much as I do--they're going to be stuck either shelving the book completely or enduring the balance issues (though hopefully they'll figure out that certain manoeuvres, like White Raven Tactics, must be banned)

 

[Darklone]

+9 Dex bonus at level 15? That's high. He must have started with a 19 or 20 Dex, or had some inherent bonuses, and then pumped in his three attribute increases and got +6 gloves of Dexterity.

Or racial paragon levels or some spells.