Too Complicated A Buy-In?

[UngeheuerLich]

And the bst thing: the very very lightly revised classes are available at the wizards/DnD site FOR FREE!

I bought only essentials books and then added MM3 and DMG2 (whic contrary to believe mostly is not redundant but rather complementing the DM Kit.)

All in all, it is a cheap and very clean way to buy in.

And i tell you a secret. The DM Kit book and the ruls compendium and one of the player books are rfernced at th table. And the playrs book only for looking up the weapons...
Players don´t use the books at all. They may build thir character with the char generator together with me and it all works very smoothly.

 

[Ferghis]

The issue you pinpoint is not a trivial one, Kaodi. I agree that the organization of material put out for fourth edition is a bit overwhelming. However, as others pointed out, you can play the game very well with just the Rules Compendium and a DDI subscription.

I have no interest in DDI.

You can play 4e without DDI, but you're missing out on a lot of the game. Without DDI, I'd have a hell of a time just keeping up with the errata (or updates, as they are technically called), which are an excellent way to make sure a game is what it should be. There are other ways, but updating the game often is a good one.

With books, well, once you have paid for them they are good for life. If I stop playing D&D for 20 years, my modest 3e collection will still be as good as the day I bought them. Not so with DDI.

Not entirely true (you get to keep all the e-Dragon and e-Dungeon issues published to date), but your point is legitimate. You want to make a single small investment and own a complete game.

In that case, in addition to the rules compendium, you can pick up any single book that has the most races and classes you like (I suggest the first PHB, but the essentials books are also good candidates), any single monster manual, download the free updates to those books, and you are good to start playing. Any additional publications (including the DMG) are really optional. You'll have the same kind of game that you would have with your small 3.5e collection.

 

[I'm A Banana]

If you're a player, grab one of the Essentials heroes books.

If you're a DM, grab the RC and maybe a Monster Vault.

Look, you don't need to buy everything for the game. Any one character will keep you occupied for two years. You don't need all the options. You're not going to USE 90% of the options, even if you had them. Get some monsters. Get some characters. Go have fun.

I'm starting a new group now where we didn't even buy the books. We went to the Barnes and Noble, made characters in the cafe, and I'm using DDI for monsters.

You can do this, you just need to willingly not try and collect all the options.

Because I kind of fail at that is the reason I'm on DDI. I figure, if I'm ever not playing 4e, I really don't need to have a shelf full of books of it (they're not THAT good. ), so I'll cancel my sub then.

 

[Herschel]

However, when I look at all the stuff that has been going on with 4E, I kind of have to wonder whether it would even be worth it to try and buy into the current system rather than just mooch off of fellow players who have.

Unless something were to come out like the Revised Player's Handbook that Mercurius mentions in his thread, I would have a hard time justifying buying into a system that just seems to be in utter turmoil.

The system isn't in turmoil, a bunch of people are just whining about things on the internet as things are added. Politics, sports, music, you name it, the only difference is the subject. Personally, I'm not having Essentials players handbooks on my shelf. Other people like them, so they buy them.

 

[Dannager]

The system isn't in turmoil, a bunch of people are just whining about things on the internet as things are added. Politics, sports, music, you name it, the only difference is the subject. Personally, I'm not having Essentials players handbooks on my shelf. Other people like them, so they buy them.

Basically, this. If it weren't for the fact that some internet people can find doom in anything, no one would be under the impression that there's anything wrong. The product line itself does not lend that impression, nor does the game in actual play.

 

[Ourph]

I have no interest in DDI. With books, well, once you have paid for them they are good for life. If I stop playing D&D for 20 years, my modest 3e collection will still be as good as the day I bought them. Not so with DDI.

I was suggesting the RC and a one month subscription to DDI, just to see if your interest in the game survives first contact. Think of it as a cheap preview of all the material you might want to purchase in print if you like it.

 

[Chris Knapp]

You can play 4e without DDI, but you're missing out on a lot of the game. Without DDI, I'd have a hell of a time just keeping up with the errata (or updates, as they are technically called), which are an excellent way to make sure a game is what it should be. There are other ways, but updating the game often is a good one.

Errata aren't behind the pay wall, so updates to 4E are free too; no DDI required.

However, DDI is useful for the online compendium alone. Now that we're coming on 3 years playing 4E, I don't reference it as much as I used to, but its still a great resource.

 

[Mercurius]

I'll second (or third or whatever) the suggestion to pick up a copy of Rules Compendium - it is the only book that I, as a DM or player, frequently reference at the table. Everything else is either in Character or Monster Builder; I have the old, off-line versions which aren't fully updated but still fully useful.

But I can commiserate with you in that there is a massive buy-in to understand how all the books and products fit together. As you noted, I would love to see a Revised Player's Handbook - but one that is more complete than the 2008 version - revisions and errata, more classes and races, perhaps by taking out magic items (which could be compiled into a nice book).

Essentials was supposed to be the easier entry point into the game. It wasn't, or at least it wasn't that much easier. I suppose it is better because it has made some rules fixes, though.

Also, here is the Official D&D Updates Archive.

I'm starting a new group now where we didn't even buy the books. We went to the Barnes and Noble, made characters in the cafe, and I'm using DDI for monsters.

LOL. Kudos to you for "beating the system," although I can imagine being annoyed if I was the B&N manager.

 

[MrGrenadine]

Basically, this. If it weren't for the fact that some internet people can find doom in anything, no one would be under the impression that there's anything wrong. The product line itself does not lend that impression, nor does the game in actual play.

I completely disagree, and I'm not a doomsayer. I've been playing D&D since the 70's, and I currently play in a fun weekly 4e game. But its pretty clear to me that if someone who was interested in trying the game went to the local book store or hobby shop and looked through the D&D 4e books on the shelf, he or she would soon be overwhelmed and/or confused. Where to start? What books are important to have? What has been updated, and what is already out of date? The books themselves don't lead a new player from one to the next. In the past, a lot of us were introduced to the game by someone who already played and had some mastery of the system. Now? Thats damn near a necessity.

And in play, without a guiding hand, the "pretzel" the OP mentioned is quite obvious. There are too many powers, too many classes, too many multiclassing/hybrid rules, too many paragon paths, too many races, to many fiddly bonuses and conditions to track. Should inherent bonuses be used? And what about Classic or Essentials characters? This is especially confusing now that original classes are being renamed, and powers and class features can be swapped between Classic and Essentials characters with feats.

understand that I love options, and systems that allows me to create any character I want. But as a new player, the system is daunting. What options to choose? And why?

Of course, you can start without many of the options--just get the PHB, DMG and MM, download the errata, and go. But would an interested potential player even get that far without some guidance? I don't see how.

p.s. The pretzel situation can be straightened out in one fell swoop: Create a Guide for New Players, that doesn't go into specific rules, but rather describes the basic low-level game in simple language, gives a brief description of the current books and adventures available, discusses a few of the current options and higher-level possibilities, and gives a few examples of play. Think of it as everyone's-hometown-friend-who-plays-D&D-and-invites-you-to-your-first-game, in book form.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

A guide like:

New to Dnd?

As DM: buy xxx
As player: get xxx

like this site?

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Home

p.s.: the link right now does not work for me... but it used to be a nice page, that listed exactly what products are useful for Players and DM´s respectively

can someone check, if it is a lokalization problem again or if this site is really down?