Too Complicated A Buy-In?

[MrGrenadine]

The fact that individual people don't like them doesn't invalidate the point that the Red Box and Essentials provide a very clear and inexpensive entry point into the D&D hobby.

As far as I'm concerned, the Red Box is invalidated by its deviations from previously established rules, and the lack of errata to get it in line. And as for Essentials, you might be overstating how clear it is:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/305089-what-i-dont-even.html

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Only confused, because he made a double entry. Most people will not have problems. The red box inconsistencies are a worse problem.

 

[MrMyth]

As far as I'm concerned, the Red Box is invalidated by its deviations from previously established rules, and the lack of errata to get it in line. And as for Essentials, you might be overstating how clear it is:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/305089-what-i-dont-even.html

I think 'invalidated' is pretty darn strong. It could have been better (more like, say, the Gamma World set), but it does work for what it sets out to do - show someone how the game works, help them figure out a character, run them through the basics.

As for Essentials, I don't think that link serves as... any evidence whatsoever. The fact that a player, familiar with the existing system, who has had no experience whatsoever with the Essentials line, is confused, when flipping through a new non-Essentials book at a game store, mainly by the differences between it and the PHB versions of those classes...

...a confusion that is resolved within a handful of posts...

...probably has exactly nothing to do with what confusion a new player to the game may or may not have when being introduced via Essentials.

 

[MrGrenadine]

..probably has exactly nothing to do with what confusion a new player to the game may or may not have when being introduced via Essentials.

Except for the fact the a new player would have even less frame of reference for the game.

I'm not saying 4e is badwrongfun. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Essentials. I'm saying there's something wrong with the presentation.

 

[MrMyth]

Except for the fact the a new player would have even less frame of reference for the game.

Which, in this case, would remove the confusion referenced in that thread. He's confused by the Warlock having no curse, more limited choices, and other differences between the Essentials builds and the previous versions.

A new player entering the game with Essentials wouldn't have any of those questions. 7

I'm not saying 4e is badwrongfun. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Essentials. I'm saying there's something wrong with the presentation.

Maybe yes, maybe no. I think it has room for improvement, sure. But either way, I don't think the thread you linked to has any real relevance. Confusion caused for an existing player, browsing a book at a store, and being confused by the differences between the new builds and prior ones... is unlikely to be at all comparable to a new player getting Essentials and learning the material from it directly.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

In the last year or two I have fallen into a bit of a rut where I have not been gaming or even that interested in gaming, but I am not looking to abandon my old hobby completely by any means. However, when I look at all the stuff that has been going on with 4E, I kind of have to wonder whether it would even be worth it to try and buy into the current system rather than just mooch off of fellow players who have.

Unless something were to come out like the Revised Player's Handbook that Mercurius mentions in his thread, I would have a hard time justifying buying into a system that just seems to be in utter turmoil. Of course, in theory, you can play the game with just the original books. But I imagine it would be a question of luck to find a group willing to play like that. Core only seemed to be more attractive option to throw back to in 3e than it does in 4E.

I mean, I rather liked 4E when it originally came out. It just feels like it has been turned into something of a pretzel. And I do not like pretzels enough to spend a ton of money on them.

Eh, I think you may be overthinking it. You can buy an RC and whatever HotF* books you want and just play, if you want to just run Essentials classes (which may be fine, particularly if you want to say play a wizard which basically hasn't changed in any significant way). If you want to play core classes then get PHB1 etc.

Yes, there is errata. There is a single consolidated errata PDF you can download, but frankly if you're just playing the changes to any specific class or race are pretty limited. You can either go through the errata and figure out what impact they have or not worry about it and as long as you don't try to build gimmick characters you're not going to run into major problems (maybe you might find that some power is a bit nerfed or there's a better feat, but it won't ruin your character).

I don't think 4e is a 'pretzel' at all. Everything works fine with everything else and even as a player you're surely free to ignore anything you don't feel like using.

As for DDI, it is just a huge convenience, seriously. For 10 bucks you can D/L everything that has come out in Dungeon and Dragon mags. CB is very very handy, but it doesn't add anything materially to the game itself, so if you stop subscribing you've lost nothing. I mean this assumes you don't mind PDFs, but frankly in this day and age you're going to run into a lot of PDF stuff. This is really not all that different a situation from your other main choice, Pathfinder. Notice that even PF is coming out with a 'basic' version. Any popular system that has been around for a while is going to have a lot of options. You just have to pick and choose what you want.

And if you're DMing? Well, then it is all your call. Allow or disallow whatever you want. If players want to use stuff you don't have, then they'll have to dig it up themselves and run it by you.

 

[Imaro]

The one thing I will say WotC totally FUBaR'd is the new "eseentials" magic system, even they have admitted they screwed up on this one. The problem is that a new DM that goes essentials has no access to the old parcel system... unless he buys the DMG from the original 3 corebooks.

 

[Ourph]

As far as I'm concerned, the Red Box is invalidated by its deviations from previously established rules

I think this still evades the point. The Red Box clearly does 2 things.

1) It provides an unmissable entry point into the game for new players. It sits there on the shelf and says "BEGINNERS, BUY ME FIRST!".

2) It clearly points new players to the next set of products they need to purchase in order to expand their games.

The extent to which the rules in one coincide with the rules in the other is an issue worth discussing. But it is an issue that has nothing to do with clearly defining an entry point for the hobby.