Too good to be coincidence?

[Saeviomagy]

(deleted post)

 

[Durifern]

Challenging your DM and accusing him of cheating wasn't the best of ideas imo (like the DM downing your wizard the way he did). Like others I think he just wanted to make the encounter more of a challenge and demonstrate that your enemy is someone to be reckoned with. Perhaps you should more thinik about how you can take revenge on that nilbog rather than argueing with your DM. He knows now how you think about metagaming, trust him that he doesn't do it again.
In the defense of the DM: his (eventually) cheating did no lasting harm besides hurting your pride.

From A DM point of view I can't stand it when people are complaining instead of thinking of a way to get their problem solved, however I can see that this is a different case, so I'd advise you cut your DM some slack.

 

[Nail]

Devil's Advocate:
It's quite likely the DM (real person) doesn't have a supra-high Int - a decent Int, I'm sure...but who, even here on ENBoards has a 24 Int? Hmmm?

So, one way to model having a high Int is to allow the DM to "cheat" if the NPC makes a Int check. That is, the NPC "thought of that PC tactic" already, and planned for it.

Cheating as a rule. I like it!

 

[silentspace]

More Devil's Advocate:

It's not hard to find out lots and lots about the enemy. PCs do it all the time using skills (gather info, listen, diplomacy, etc) and spells (scry, speak with dead, charm, etc.). If you've made an enemy who's out to get you, its not hard for them to learn all sorts of things about you too. As you rise in power, your opponents tend to scale in power. If you can fly and turn invisible, it shouldn't be surprising that you meet an opponent who can too. Take the ogre mage (CR 8 to match your level 8 wizard). If you had an ogre mage who was out to get you, you'd be toast. The ogre mage can fly invisibly all day long. If he wanted to, using just those two innate abilities alone, he could follow you for days and find out just about everything there is to know about you. Your DM wouldn't even need to stat it out. Just use the base MM ogre mage. Heck, don't even give it any equipment.

 

[Gaiden]

So I guess the concensus is that it wasn't an illusion...

If I was the DM, it would have been - gosh nilbog flies invisibly above advancing goblin war party and sees goblins being wasted by enemy caster who suddenly appears near him in the air, realizes enemy caster is really only threat to him but has nothing to deal with the caster, as he wasn't expecting him and knew nothing about him. Has to use an illusion to do something to the caster. Nilbog is intelligent and knows that even if the illusion does work, it won't do anything permanent. Only way to harm caster with illusion is to somehow indirectly do damage. Falling seems the way to go - illusion of some uber net is perfect. Moreover, this does not seem to be unbalanced as casting a hold person on a creature with wings would do the same thing.

Of course as the DM, I would not let the player make the roll because then they immediately know its fake and it doesn't have the same suspense.

All this seems perfectly legit. Then again, if a player ever dared challenge me such as was done in this case, I'd probably tell him to go _____ himself. The DM in question didn't seem to defend his case with the illusion bit. Either he really doesn't want the players to know about that power, or he is in fact a newbie DM.

Regardless, as a player I'd kind of prefer working together with a DM than working against, even if I did receive the short end of the stick. Usually DMs are not out to just kill the PCs. If they are, they will, because they can. Moreover, in such a game, there is really no point playing. This case though has 8th level PCs. Presumably they have been roleplaying for at least a little while. The player should have a feel for the level of experience of this DM. If the DM is new, cut him some slack, and just call it water under the bridge. After the display, I am sure he will really appreciate letting him slide and will do something in game to reward your character later. If the DM is experienced, think outside the box - and when you kill the fugger nilbog, take all of his shiznet.

On the other hand, if the DM is an anal retentive, leave the game - there really is no point playing, even if they are your friends. Wait for a few years until they mature as gamers (and you have had time to gain control of yourself when confronted with an apparent injustice) and then give 'em a call again.

 

[jgsugden]

I have to say, I am disappointed that so many people are jumping to roast this DM without hearing his side of the story. Or did I miss it somewhere?

For all we know, the player is stretching the truth. I am not saying that he is doing so ... I'm just saying that it is possible.

 

[James McMurray]

I think it would have ben interesting if people ha replied as follows:

"When e game, I generally ______, and my opinion is ___". The first blank would be either play or DM, and the second would of course be the opinion.

I bet it mostly the people that play that are roasting the DM, and the people that DM who more defensive for the DM in question.

 

[Tom]

I had a little argument with my DM. I said he was making stuff up, he said it just worked out that way. I want some outside opinions.

Our party has been having problems with this nilbog, if you don’t know what that is just consider it a nasty goblin. Anyway, we were traveling when our druid (in bird form) spots a large group of goblins coming toward us. Before they arrive I cast invisibility and use my wings of flying to fly 90 feet strait up. The first round of combat I cast fireball from 90 feet up, and on his turn, the invisible nilbog appears above me as he trows a net of snaring over me, toppling me to the ground (I survived by the way)

I thought this attack was too perfect to be coincidence. The party has faced the nilbog many times before and he as never demonstrated the ability to fly. He just happened to be flying 90 feet above the combat. He just happened to be close enough to me to get above me and attack all on the first round. He just happened to have the perfect magical item to send a winged wizard to his doom. BTW, this net was an item he said he had taken out of an old book; he said that he couldn’t remember what it did exactly so he was making up the rules for it. I challenged him to show me the sheet with the nilbogs equipment, there is none, he is just winging it.

Maybe I’m just seeing things, but this seems to fit into place a bit to perfectly, I think the DM was making up a cheesy way to get the flying wizard. Now I know a DM can say and do whatever he wants, but that’s not the issue here. I just want to know how other people view this scenario.

Let's take a look at what events would have to take place in order for the events described to happen:
1) The chief nilbog would have to guess the new tactics of the party to include a flying (with wings), invisible, fireball using wizard. He would then have to have the resourses to counter the abilities/tactics (see invisible, fly, the net of "Wizard Screwage", etc.).
2) The goblins would need to spot a bird (druid) at a distance (I'll assume several hundred feet because the bird surely spotted a large group of goblins from the air at several hundred feet unless conditions sucked BADLY) ; and then the goblins would have to know that the particular bird was not normal and therefore raise suspicion.
3) I'll assume the goblin party started quite a distance away from the PCs and the PCs took appropriate steps to prevent from being spotted themselves. Now let's assume the goblins spot the PCs at a closer distance (let's guess, say 120 feet, I don't know the spotting conditions) and therefore surprise is not a factor. So for the Nilbog to be at the same level as the Wizard who is 120 feet away and 90 feet up on round one is a pretty good stretch. It should take at least three rounds to cover the distance with a fly spell (1/2 speed when ascending, 2 rounds to get to 90 ft altitude + 1 round to cover the rest of the forward distance). But let's assume the Nilbog took the see invisible potion due to spotting a weird bird; and then a few rounds later spotted a flying Wizard; and then spelled up with fly.
4) I don't know how the net of "Wizard Screwage" works, but it would seem like he would have to make a to-hit roll with it or you would get a saving throw or something. So I'll assume the nilbog is proficient at throwing nets while flying; or proficient with Use Magical Device (net of Wizard Screwage).

So with all this, I believe I can safely say you got metagamed. Metagaming is not a problem usually, unless it doesn't make sense (like in this case) and the players loose the "sense of realness" of the game (no I'm not some psyco who runs around sewers killing rats with a short sword {well not often anyway, }). So what to do now.

If the DM is having trouble challenging your party, he needs to analyse his tactics first and his monster's abilities second. He should only metagame tactics if he can reason a plausible way it could have occurred without the need for metagaming. He should only metagame the monster abilities if he can plausibly reason how the increase occurred without metagaming. For example, we were playing the Hill Giant Module and were killing them easily. So for the Frost Giant Module, the DM beefed up the Fr Giants (added some extra Nat Armor, and a few fighter levels/feats/HPs) and he explained it in our first encounter with them by saying "These frost giants look extra tough (probably because this is their main stronghold in Greyhawk) with extra thick looking skin, and impressive looking battle scars".

That's what the DM needs to try to do. The DM can be wrong, just try not to argue during the game too much and talk outside the game.

 

[Trainz]

I think it's a Dm's prerogative to make stuff up. It's essential to a good game.

That said, as a DM, I wouldn't have handled it that way. I would have let the player rain death from above as much as he wants, until there are no more critters left.

When the party approaches the corpses, a lot of the treasure would be destroyed, from such an onslaught (remember that unattended items don't have a good save. And once a critter is dead, the second fireball will pretty much destroy a good chunk of what the corpses were carying).

And then, when the players ask me about the XP reward, I would say "None". Look it up in the DM's guide. If there is no danger, no XP. At least the players don't feel the fight is "fixed", like you do.

I know it's a form of metagaming, but in a previous campaign, we were all high level, and flying all the time. When we saw a big evil critter on the road that we thought we could take, we would descend on it and fight it on the ground. If it looked too powerful, we rained death from above, and although we weren't rewarded, at least we were happy in the knowledge that there was one less evildoer roaming about.

It made for more fun fights too (the ones where the critter could fight back).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

And then, when the players ask me about the XP reward, I would say "None". Look it up in the DM's guide. If there is no danger, no XP. At least the players don't feel the fight is "fixed", like you do.

I know it's a form of metagaming, but in a previous campaign, we were all high level, and flying all the time. When we saw a big evil critter on the road that we thought we could take, we would descend on it and fight it on the ground. If it looked too powerful, we rained death from above, and although we weren't rewarded, at least we were happy in the knowledge that there was one less evildoer roaming about.

It made for more fun fights too (the ones where the critter could fight back).

I suppose it can work, but that is way too much metagaming for my taste. IMHO DMs should not reward players for sandbagging it, except for those specific cases where it is done for roleplaying reasons. I can't stand it when a DM punishes players for clever tactics or rewards them for poor play.