Thorvald Kviksverd
First Post
Steven McRownt said:
At the very least, it adds a certain "legitimacy" to our little undertaking
Tracking Alignment
- Thread starter Thorvald Kviksverd
- Start date
At the very least, it adds a certain "legitimacy" to our little undertaking
I can't tell you guys how excited I am about what you are doing here. Keep it coming! It really tires me when people complain about how DnD is only good at a dungeon crawl with a linear plot
. As you are proving (and others have proven before), this system is highly flexible and adaptable to individual needs. Thanx for all your work. Now I just have to see if my local gaming store carries Pendragon....
Mean DM
. As you are proving (and others have proven before), this system is highly flexible and adaptable to individual needs. Thanx for all your work. Now I just have to see if my local gaming store carries Pendragon....Mean DM
ninthcouncil
First Post
I've just been working on replacing alignment with the Pendragon traits, so it's funny to find it coming up here at the same time!
I'd have Energetic/Lazy as a Good/Evil rather than Lawful/Chaotic trait pair, and I've added Respectful/Insolent as a Lawful/Chaotic pair. This gives 7 in both sets.
Bonuses can be worked out as per normal attributes, and applied to saving throws as necessary. So, to resist a sleep effect, one might add the Energetic bonus to the Fortitude roll.
There is however a statistical anomaly if bonuses are used as well as straight scores. Because the Bonuses are based around a zero point of 10-11, they aren't (unlike the traits) symmetrical about 10, so a character with Chaste 15 and Lustful 5 has bonuses of Chaste +2 and Lustful -3. This can be avoided by calculating the Chaotic/Evil traits using 21 - Opposing Trait instead of 20.
As far as generating the stats is concerned, my current thinking is to use a points buy (flat, no ramping costs for v.high or low values) on the Law/Good traits, and calculate the opposing traits as above. Select a broad alignment first, as per standard D&D, and determine points spend from there. If Chaotic, you split 50 points over the Law traits, Neutral splits 70, Lawful 90. Same idea for Good/Evil traits.
I'd have Energetic/Lazy as a Good/Evil rather than Lawful/Chaotic trait pair, and I've added Respectful/Insolent as a Lawful/Chaotic pair. This gives 7 in both sets.
Bonuses can be worked out as per normal attributes, and applied to saving throws as necessary. So, to resist a sleep effect, one might add the Energetic bonus to the Fortitude roll.
There is however a statistical anomaly if bonuses are used as well as straight scores. Because the Bonuses are based around a zero point of 10-11, they aren't (unlike the traits) symmetrical about 10, so a character with Chaste 15 and Lustful 5 has bonuses of Chaste +2 and Lustful -3. This can be avoided by calculating the Chaotic/Evil traits using 21 - Opposing Trait instead of 20.
As far as generating the stats is concerned, my current thinking is to use a points buy (flat, no ramping costs for v.high or low values) on the Law/Good traits, and calculate the opposing traits as above. Select a broad alignment first, as per standard D&D, and determine points spend from there. If Chaotic, you split 50 points over the Law traits, Neutral splits 70, Lawful 90. Same idea for Good/Evil traits.
Thorvald Kviksverd
First Post
I was thinking while at the gym...
The opposed pairs listed under Good/Evil and Lawful/Chaotic could simply be used as guidelines to help define which category a given act would affect, and would not be assigned values themselves, OR
They could be assigned values as previously discussed, but some mechanic would then be required to determine what values in these sub-traits are neccessary to qualify for the respective labels of Good, Evil, Neutral, Lawful, and Chaotic. I would suggest something along the following lines (and similar to the religious bonuses from Pendragon...
GOOD/EVIL
IF the 6 traits in the left hand column total 78 points AND no trait in the right hand column is above 12 points THEN the character is GOOD.
IF the 6 traits in the right hand column total 78 points THEN the character is EVIL.
IF neither of the above conditions are met THEN the character is NEUTRAL.
LAWFUL/CHAOTIC
IF the 7 traits in the left hand column total 91 points AND no trait in the right hand column is above 12 points THEN the character is LAWFUL.
IF the 7 traits in the right hand column total 91 points THEN the character is CHAOTIC.
IF neither of the above conditions are met THEN the character is NEUTRAL.
These numbers assume an average of 13 for each trait in a given column in order to qualify for a non-neutral classification. This can be modified to suit your campaign (perhaps lowering the threshhold for Evil/Chaos ?)or to adjust for more or fewer traits.
As I have it set down above, and as previously discussed, it is more difficult to attain and maintain a classification of Good and Lawful--this was intentional.
The opposed pairs listed under Good/Evil and Lawful/Chaotic could simply be used as guidelines to help define which category a given act would affect, and would not be assigned values themselves, OR
They could be assigned values as previously discussed, but some mechanic would then be required to determine what values in these sub-traits are neccessary to qualify for the respective labels of Good, Evil, Neutral, Lawful, and Chaotic. I would suggest something along the following lines (and similar to the religious bonuses from Pendragon...
GOOD/EVIL
IF the 6 traits in the left hand column total 78 points AND no trait in the right hand column is above 12 points THEN the character is GOOD.
IF the 6 traits in the right hand column total 78 points THEN the character is EVIL.
IF neither of the above conditions are met THEN the character is NEUTRAL.
LAWFUL/CHAOTIC
IF the 7 traits in the left hand column total 91 points AND no trait in the right hand column is above 12 points THEN the character is LAWFUL.
IF the 7 traits in the right hand column total 91 points THEN the character is CHAOTIC.
IF neither of the above conditions are met THEN the character is NEUTRAL.
These numbers assume an average of 13 for each trait in a given column in order to qualify for a non-neutral classification. This can be modified to suit your campaign (perhaps lowering the threshhold for Evil/Chaos ?)or to adjust for more or fewer traits.
As I have it set down above, and as previously discussed, it is more difficult to attain and maintain a classification of Good and Lawful--this was intentional.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
There is an idea in, IIRC, "The Adventure of the Heart Blade" in Blood & Lust, a book of Pendragon adventures, about using Traits and Passions for more than tracking the character's personality.
In Arthurian tales, many, if not most, of the adventures are highly allegorical. If you want to run a game along those lines, how about having Trait scores replace some of the character's scores in abilities or skills? For example:
* In a trial by combat, when knights fight over who is right about something, have them use their Just scores as their BAB, and their Honest scores for AC. Or vice-versa.
* Have a character with a high Proud score use that score as a DC modifier for Charisma-based skills. Blowhards and braggarts usually rub people the wrong way.
* Someone with a high Trusting score may receive a bonus for Will saves in certain circumstances - he or she is so free of guile that an aura of protection shields him or her from the manipulations of others.
These are just some examples off the top of my head. They shouldn't be used all the time, but in special circumstances (like when the adventure is allegorical in nature) they might be appropriate. High enough Trait scores may give bonuses to saves and the like, something like how Feats do.
Another thing I may have missed here is a discussion of how Passions can inspire one to do great deeds (bonuses in combat or for skill checks) in Pendragon - should work in an Arthurian D&D game just as well.
In Arthurian tales, many, if not most, of the adventures are highly allegorical. If you want to run a game along those lines, how about having Trait scores replace some of the character's scores in abilities or skills? For example:
* In a trial by combat, when knights fight over who is right about something, have them use their Just scores as their BAB, and their Honest scores for AC. Or vice-versa.
* Have a character with a high Proud score use that score as a DC modifier for Charisma-based skills. Blowhards and braggarts usually rub people the wrong way.
* Someone with a high Trusting score may receive a bonus for Will saves in certain circumstances - he or she is so free of guile that an aura of protection shields him or her from the manipulations of others.
These are just some examples off the top of my head. They shouldn't be used all the time, but in special circumstances (like when the adventure is allegorical in nature) they might be appropriate. High enough Trait scores may give bonuses to saves and the like, something like how Feats do.
Another thing I may have missed here is a discussion of how Passions can inspire one to do great deeds (bonuses in combat or for skill checks) in Pendragon - should work in an Arthurian D&D game just as well.
Victim
First Post
I like the idea of traits modifying certain actions. For example, the Chaste knight and the rather lustful swashbuckler run into a succubus. The knight gets a bonus to his saves and the rogue eats a penalty. It makes sense to me anyway, although all traits should b=probably have advantages and disadvantages to avoid people min-maxing their alignment. And to perevent the bad guys from getting screwed.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Well, one thing is to limit the use of such a mechanic. Usually, it would end up being a battle between Traits - the Chaste knight against the Lustful swashbuckler, with opposed checks for the respective Traits. In other words, there would be a competition between the Chaste knight, who uses his Chaste score as his AC, and the Lustful swashbuckler, who uses his Lustful score as his BAB.
Another way is for the DM to construct adventures so that the Pagan knight with a high Lustful Trait (IIRC, it was one of the Traits a Pagan knight had to keep in the upper levels) is on an even footing with the others, and vice versa. That is, just as with any other D&D campaign, the DM would keep the specifics of the PCs in mind when writing/devising adventures, to make sure each character gets a chance to shine.
Another way is for the DM to construct adventures so that the Pagan knight with a high Lustful Trait (IIRC, it was one of the Traits a Pagan knight had to keep in the upper levels) is on an even footing with the others, and vice versa. That is, just as with any other D&D campaign, the DM would keep the specifics of the PCs in mind when writing/devising adventures, to make sure each character gets a chance to shine.
Master Kaul
First Post
Bravo
Thorvald Kviksverd
First Post
It's generally easier to be bad than it is to be good.
I think the inclusion of these modifiers is a great way to encourage characters to strive for a more "heroic" ideal--and the less heroic sorts will now actually tend to suffer a bit for their mis-deeds.
This latter aspect is naturally balanced by the fact that the Chaotic/Evil character has already gained some other benefit by not being as constrained by his ethos as a more Lawful/Good character--he may be 10,000gp richer than the honest fighter, but now he has to contend with his reputation as a thief and liar.
This is coming along very nicely
I think the inclusion of these modifiers is a great way to encourage characters to strive for a more "heroic" ideal--and the less heroic sorts will now actually tend to suffer a bit for their mis-deeds.
This latter aspect is naturally balanced by the fact that the Chaotic/Evil character has already gained some other benefit by not being as constrained by his ethos as a more Lawful/Good character--he may be 10,000gp richer than the honest fighter, but now he has to contend with his reputation as a thief and liar.
This is coming along very nicely
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