Trailblazer and Cleric Domains

[Libri]

Hey Wulf.....bought the PDF and so far really impressed. Best $ I've spent on gaming in a long while. I do have a question however.

If my reading of Cleric domains is correct, domain spells basically just give additional readied spells, but no slots. Doesn't this nerf the Healing domain, due to the fact that most of the healing spells can already be spontaneously cast?

In the past, I've always thought of the Domains (and the additional spells they give) as the Cleric equivalent of Mage specialization. Under Trailblazer specialist mages still get additional slots, so why not the Clerics?

 

[GlassJaw]

Thanks Libri!

Good catch on the Healing domain. I think you are right, although the Healing domain was never that great to begin with since clerics could already spontaneously cast cure spells.

The Healing domain power is still valid, and they still benefit from getting Heal, Regenerate, and Mass Heal as readied spells. Maybe the simplest fix is to replace the cure spells with spells like Remove Fear, Lesser Restoration, Remove Disease, and Neutralize Poison, respectively.

Under Trailblazer specialist mages still get additional slots, so why not the Clerics?

This was done intentionally to "rein in" some of the cleric's power. The cleric was one of the most powerful classes. We actually tested a version of the cleric in which the domains gave them bonus slots and readied spells and it was definitely too much. I did enjoy playtesting it though.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Hey Wulf.....bought the PDF and so far really impressed. Best $ I've spent on gaming in a long while. I do have a question however.

If my reading of Cleric domains is correct, domain spells basically just give additional readied spells, but no slots.

Your reading is correct.

Doesn't this nerf the Healing domain, due to the fact that most of the healing spells can already be spontaneously cast?

Yes, it does.

The granted power (+1 caster level on healing spells) is fine; the best solution is to replace the spells of the Healing domain with other standard spells (Sanctuary, Lesser Restoration, Remove Disease, Neutralize Poison or Restoration, Raise Dead, etc.) or appropriate spells from other sources.

There are some other solutions for this specific issue (i.e., the watering down of the healing domain) to be found in Unearthed Arcana.

Our upcoming book on spells and magic will have some new "straightforward" healing spells as well. (And more domains for that matter...)

Under Trailblazer specialist mages still get additional slots, so why not the Clerics?

Clerics were already overpowered. The new Ready spell mechanic is a big boost for all spellcasters; playtesting clerics with both bonus slots and bonus Ready spells felt like too much-- and it started to really intrude on the specialist wizard's space.

You can, of course, simply override this! It will shoot the cleric back up past the druid to the #1 power slot.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Ninja'ed by almost 20 minutes...?

 

[GlassJaw]

Ninja'ed by almost 20 minutes...?

Basically. I was starting to think maybe you just have me on ignore.

 

[Libri]

Good catch on the Healing domain. I think you are right, although the Healing domain was never that great to begin with since clerics could already spontaneously cast cure spells.

True, although after being exposed to the domain spontaneous casting variant in DMG2(?), I made that the standard for all my campaigns. If a player wanted a healbot cleric, they needed to take a deity with the Healing domain. Really served to differentiate the clerics of the different deities.

The Healing domain power is still valid, and they still benefit from getting Heal, Regenerate, and Mass Heal as readied spells. Maybe the simplest fix is to replace the cure spells with spells like Remove Fear, Lesser Restoration, Remove Disease, and Neutralize Poison, respectively.

I had forgotten the +1 level adjustment power, and the substitute spell list looks solid.

This was done intentionally to "rein in" some of the cleric's power. The cleric was one of the most powerful classes. We actually tested a version of the cleric in which the domains gave them bonus slots and readied spells and it was definitely too much. I did enjoy playtesting it though.

This was what I was suspecting, and why I was motivated to "delurk" and make an account so I could post (you guys got my first post here ever!). One thing I realized on about the 3rd or 4th reading of the PDF was just how intertwined everything in Trailblazer is, and how extensively playtested the rules obviously were. Did you guys ever playtest the spontaeous domain casting variant, or if not, do you have any gut feeling how it would affect the power levels? My initial feeling is that the effect would be minimal, given increased hit points and 10 minute rest periods. Plus the standard healbot cleric is always an option by taking the healing domain.

Thanks for the quick response to my question, you guys rock!

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Did you guys ever playtest the spontaeous domain casting variant, or if not, do you have any gut feeling how it would affect the power levels?

I'm not sure I fully understand the question.

With the Ready spell mechanic, ALL spellcasters are essentially spontaneous casters: casting the spells you want from the subset of spells you have Readied by spending the spell slots required.

 

[Libri]

I'm not sure I fully understand the question.

With the Ready spell mechanic, ALL spellcasters are essentially spontaneous casters: casting the spells you want from the subset of spells you have Readied by spending the spell slots required.

Wow Wulf, you guys are fast <grin>. I should have "delurked" a long time ago. Basically, the variant spontaneous domain variant made the domains of the deity a stronger differentiator than 3.5 RAW. The only clerics who got to sponteously switch healing spells for their chosen spells were the ones who chose a deity with a healing domain and chose healing as one of their two domains. A cleric with the War domain for example, could choose to cast Magic Weapon instead of Cure Light Wounds insplace of an unused readied 1st level spell. They would lose the ability to switch in heal spells unless they had also taken the Healing domain. As a sop to player concern about loss of spontaneous healing, they could take cure spells in their domain spell slots, which is what led me to notice that in Trailblazer those slots were gone.

<snipped a long and ultimately irrelevant section on houseruling this variant into Trailblazer>

You know Wulf, in trying to enunciate how such a variant would work in Trailblazer, I just realized that you are absolutely right....the readied spell/spell slot mechanic really makes this variant irrelevant. It ultimately doesn't matter whether the readied spell comes from a domain, spontaneous casting(1), or a chosen spell....the player casts it the same. I'm simultaneously impressed at the elegance of Trailblazer's design, and saddened at the loss of a cherished houserule....

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

If you're not happy with the integration of spontaneous healing, domain ready spells, and the Healing domain, I figure these are your two best options:

1) Remove the spontaneous healing (ie, bonus Ready cure spells) class feature from all Trailblazer clerics, and leave the Healing domain alone (this will further curtail cleric power);

2) Leave the bonus Ready cure spells alone as a class feature for all Trailblazer clerics, but change the listed spells in the Healing domain (as noted above).

 

[Libri]

It's not that I'm unhappy (far from it), just that I'm needing to approach Trailblazer with an appreciation that my old ways of doing things need to be dropped (or at least need to be considered very very carefully). As I said, I'm very impressed with the elegance of the design, it fits perfectly with what I am wanting to do with it (run an E6 campaign for new players, including my non-gamer wife who has finally consented to see what my hobby is all about). So I'm thinking that I will run with the rules as written, and if I still have issues in 6 months then I'll come back and post, but with solid in-play examples rather than theoretical "not the way I'm used to doing things" kind of posts. That said, if I was going to try and recreate the domain variant, I'd probably go with option #1 in your above post. Thanks again, and looking forward to the POD product.