Trailblazer Teasers (collected)

[Wulf Ratbane]

Why would you ever play a fighter instead of this barbarian?

Ahh, I love that question. Frankly twice is too few for this thread. I'm disappointed.



The fighter will have a more versatile selection of weapons and tactics, and will deal more damage. (Much more.)

The barbarian is more resilient in the long haul. (Much more.)

But your question seems to indicate to me that you haven't read the Trailblazer fighter.

 

[joela]

TB barbarian versus fighter

Ahh, I love that question. Frankly twice is too few for this thread. I'm disappointed.



The fighter will have a more versatile selection of weapons and tactics, and will deal more damage. (Much more.)

The barbarian is more resilient in the long haul. (Much more.)

But your question seems to indicate to me that you haven't read the Trailblazer fighter.

Question was also posted over at the Paizo boards. I've updated it with link to the TB fighter as well.

 

[GlassJaw]

Ahh, I love that question. Frankly twice is too few for this thread. I'm disappointed.

It's interesting that most of me and Wulf's discussions on the barbarian after the fighter was finished was "why would you ever play a barbarian instead of a fighter?".

In 3.5, the fighter was definitely the red-headed stepchild of the classes. It woefully lacked in power, and we didn't need Wulf's in-depth number-crunching to back that up.

But after revising the fighter, we felt the barbarian was lacking. I hadn't seen this version of the barbarian - the bonus feats were the final piece of the puzzle on top of what we already had - but I really like what Wulf did. We've expanded the bonus feat lists for a few classes - monk, ranger, now barbarian - to allow for more customization within those classes.

And if anyone feels the Fighter is lacking, you haven't let Expert Weapon Proficiency fully sink in.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Question was also posted over at the Paizo boards. I've updated it with link to the TB fighter as well.

I appreciate you holding down the fort over there. As I said before, I don't expect a lot of cross-over fans with Pathfinder proper.

So while I'm happy to answer actual questions wherever I am aware of them, I don't want to have to engage "pure preference" posts in multiple locations.

I think the best way to compare the fighter and barbarian is to just look specifically at the levels where the fighter gets his main class feature, expert weapon proficiency. Let's assume that both focus on the greataxe.

I'm going to try to keep them on parity with the same basic feat choices, showing crossovers, and "unanswered" feats and class features.

Level		Character Feats		Fighter Feats		Barbarian Feats
3		1st, 3rd		1st, 2nd		3rd
7		6th			4th, 6th		6th
11		9th			8th, 10th		9th
15		12th, 15th		12th, 14th		12th, 15th
19		18th			16th, 18th		18th

By 3rd level, both the fighter and the barbarian can have weapon focus, power attack, and cleave. The fighter has one more character feat left over.

Beyond that, the fighter can use his character feats to keep up feat-for-feat with whatever the barbarian takes from his bonus feats. The barbarian can use his character feats to keep up with the fighter's bonus feats-- for 7/10 of them. (The fighter has 18 feats overall; the barbarian has 13 feats.)

By 20th level, the "unanswered" comparison is as follows:

FIGHTER
1 character feat
4 fighter feats
5 expert weapon proficiencies
+5d6 punishing strike

BARBARIAN
Fast movement
Rage (through mighty), 6/rest
Uncanny dodge (improved)
DR10
Indomitable Will
Trap sense +6

The divergence at the end of the line tips the edge in offense to the fighter (expert weapon profs, more feats), and the edge in defense to the barbarian (DR, uncanny dodge, indomitable will).

Especially illustrative is the difference between the fighter's greataxe and the barbarian's greataxe:

Expert Weapon Proficiency (Greataxe)
3rd	Critical threat range to 19-20
7th	Critical threat range to 18-20
11th	Critical multiplier to x4 (likely now 15-20 with Improved Crit)
15th	Increase damage to 2d8
19th	Add reach, trip, etc.

Fortunately I think you'll see more divergence between the fighter and the barbarian that this "Keeping up with Jones" example illustrates.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

And if anyone feels the Fighter is lacking, you haven't let Expert Weapon Proficiency fully sink in.

Certainly by 11th level, most fighters should be critting on a 15+ with their chosen weapon (expert weapon proficiency to extend the crit threat range to 18-20, plus Improved Critical on top). (And probably room to improve the crit multiplier as well.)

With 30% of all hits as a critical threat, and Action Points to spare (fighters have no spell slots or other per rest abilities) I would expect to see Great Cleave enjoy a resurgence in popularity.

Can you roll a natural 15+ twice in a row?

Then you can probably great cleave a pack of trolls.

 

[joela]

rpg

I appreciate you holding down the fort over there. As I said before, I don't expect a lot of cross-over fans with Pathfinder proper.

Also keeping the rpg.net folks up-to-date.

 

[Shazman]

I appreciate you holding down the fort over there. As I said before, I don't expect a lot of cross-over fans with Pathfinder proper.

So while I'm happy to answer actual questions wherever I am aware of them, I don't want to have to engage "pure preference" posts in multiple locations.

I think the best way to compare the fighter and barbarian is to just look specifically at the levels where the fighter gets his main class feature, expert weapon proficiency. Let's assume that both focus on the greataxe.

I'm going to try to keep them on parity with the same basic feat choices, showing crossovers, and "unanswered" feats and class features.

Level		Character Feats		Fighter Feats		Barbarian Feats
3		1st, 3rd		1st, 2nd		3rd
7		6th			4th, 6th		6th
11		9th			8th, 10th		9th
15		12th, 15th		12th, 14th		12th, 15th
19		18th			16th, 18th		18th

By 3rd level, both the fighter and the barbarian can have weapon focus, power attack, and cleave. The fighter has one more character feat left over.

Beyond that, the fighter can use his character feats to keep up feat-for-feat with whatever the barbarian takes from his bonus feats. The barbarian can use his character feats to keep up with the fighter's bonus feats-- for 7/10 of them. (The fighter has 18 feats overall; the barbarian has 13 feats.)

By 20th level, the "unanswered" comparison is as follows:

FIGHTER
1 character feat
4 fighter feats
5 expert weapon proficiencies
+5d6 punishing strike

BARBARIAN
Fast movement
Rage (through mighty), 6/rest
Uncanny dodge (improved)
DR10
Indomitable Will
Trap sense +6

The divergence at the end of the line tips the edge in offense to the fighter (expert weapon profs, more feats), and the edge in defense to the barbarian (DR, uncanny dodge, indomitable will).

Especially illustrative is the difference between the fighter's greataxe and the barbarian's greataxe:

Expert Weapon Proficiency (Greataxe)
3rd	Critical threat range to 19-20
7th	Critical threat range to 18-20
11th	Critical multiplier to x4 (likely now 15-20 with Improved Crit)
15th	Increase damage to 2d8
19th	Add reach, trip, etc.

Fortunately I think you'll see more divergence between the fighter and the barbarian that this "Keeping up with Jones" example illustrates.

Well, I was the one who said pretty mcuh the same thing on the Paizo boards. I guess I had forgotten about EWP. Maybe they are balanced. Of course, all a barbarian really needs in the way of feats are power attack, cleave, and iron will. The rest are just gravy.

BTW. Sorry to here about the spider bite. I hope it gets better. I would say that I would side with your doctor. Any bit of necrosis, even if it's small, points to a brown recluse. Anything else would just produce a welt (a non-poisonous species) or make you very sick (a black widow).

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Well, I was the one who said pretty mcuh the same thing on the Paizo boards. I guess I had forgotten about EWP.

And the increased skill points. Both get 4/level now.

Maybe they are balanced.

But surely we can agree on, "There are divergent reasons one might want to play each."

Of course, all a barbarian really needs in the way of feats are power attack, cleave, and iron will. The rest are just gravy.

In 3.5, Power Attack and Cleave just end up being a feat tax for the barbarian. (Hence their inclusion on the bonus list.)

I don't think there's any question that the barbarian will still be the class of choice for clearing a bar brawl with a haunch of mutton. (Unless the fighter chooses to become an expert in mutton haunches.)

BTW. Sorry to here about the spider bite. I hope it gets better.

Thanks. It's looking a little better. It turned around dramatically today when I actually got off it and kept my leg elevated for most of the day. The greater annoyance now would be the headaches, fatigue, shortness of breath.

 

[drifterne05]

Quick question...how will punishing blow interface with thrown/missile weapons?
I could probably answer this myself by digging through the collected threads, but I'm new to Trailblazer and am in the process of digesting your changes [which, in the main, look like pretty elegant compromises between compatibility and innovation].

 

[GlassJaw]

Quick question...how will punishing blow interface with thrown/missile weapons?

I assume you mean firing a missile weapon in a fighter's threatened area? The fighter would get his punishing strike damage. The fighter adds that damage whenever he makes an attack of opportunity, regardless of what provoke the AoO.