D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

[UngeheuerLich]

Of course we all know, that fireball is not great at single target, but its damage is high enough to get rid of minons, even on a successful safe usually. Which means, you will have saved all combatants a lot of hitoints and allowed everyone to concentrate their high damage attacks on the boss.
Low level creatures pose a threat to everyone, even at higher levels. +4 to hit vs AC 20 is 25% chance to hit. And even 1d8+2 damage is annoying in the long run.

 

[Celtavian]

Of course we all know, that fireball is not great at single target, but its damage is high enough to get rid of minons, even on a successful safe usually. Which means, you will have saved all combatants a lot of hitoints and allowed everyone to concentrate their high damage attacks on the boss.
Low level creatures pose a threat to everyone, even at higher levels. +4 to hit vs AC 20 is 25% chance to hit. And even 1d8+2 damage is annoying in the long run.

It does depend on how you play the game. If you allow feats, martials can usually hammer through minions very quickly. If you're playing without feats, then fireball is a pretty substantial help with clearing weak trash. I know that colors my perspective since the -5/+10 feats are absolutely great for trash clearing and preserving spell slots. If you're pretty much doing die + stat martial damage, you probably need fireball. Just last night our Sharpshooter Ranger pounded through three black puddings with ease. We spent very little spellpower taking them down and they mainly did damage to the paladin martial who kept them from flooding in the room.

 

[Blue]

Yes. But extra attack is independent from bladesong.
You should not use a bow when bladesong is active.

So you're talking about the corner cases where you want to be a weapon combatant instead of throwing spells but not activate bladesong. Eh, sure, whatever. If I'm not using bladsong, I'll probably trot out a spell or two. I'm not using them at the rate of other casters, especially my higher level slots. (My lower levels might be going fast for Shield and Absorb Elements and whatever I've got concentration on.)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

And still, the martials could have used their attacks on the boss instead.

 

[Celtavian]

And still, the martials could have used their attacks on the boss instead.

There was no boss. When there is a boss, very rarely is fireball a difference maker. Mostly it's an easy method to clear trash to save time rolling dice at higher level, more of a convenience for waste of time encounters. Fireball is not even a great way to spend a 3rd level spell slot in a 4+ person party with feats. You get way more bang for the buck with other spells.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

So you're talking about the corner cases where you want to be a weapon combatant instead of throwing spells but not activate bladesong. Eh, sure, whatever. If I'm not using bladsong, I'll probably trot out a spell or two. I'm not using them at the rate of other casters, especially my higher level slots. (My lower levels might be going fast for Shield and Absorb Elements and whatever I've got concentration on.)

No, I am talking about those cases, where I want to shoot something with an arrow, because my Dex is higher than my int, and a longbow does a lot more damage than a firebolt for quite some time. Only at level 5 and then again at level 17 will a firebolt be more damaging than a longbow.
At level 11, it is about even, with the longbow user slightly ahead.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Really depends on the situation. A well placed fireball does a good job. Is it always the best spell? Of course not. But the easy method of clearing trash mob and take some hp from the boss with one action helps. Especially if other party members help with buffing and giving advantage. Or battlefield control...
but I would not dismiss the good old fireball that easily. But in your games, fireball may not be as effective as in our games. It is really dependent on game style.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

issues I have with this comparison:
1) It assumes the secondary effect is always triggered (my biggest issue)
2) It does not take "to hit" into account (the effect of MAD is seen here right from 4th level)
3) This is a very small one, but technically the FB benefits more from crits, which also increases its damage

I suspect if all those were taken into account, GFB would still do more damage, but the difference would be a lot smaller. It still might be 50% at some levels, I didn't do the # crunching.

Primarily I would question whether GFB doing more damage than Flame Bolt makes melee and effective primary option for Wizards. I would be more interested to match a Wizard using GFB up against another class using GFB, or using their standard melee attacks. Then how does it compare?

Let's look at a Rogue. Take a rogue (race unimportant, subclass unimportant). push him up to 17th level, will certainly have 20 dex by then. Zero other optimizations. Give him a rapier in main hand and a short sword in off hand:
Main hand rapier base damage (9.5 x .6) + off hand shorstword damage (3.5 x .6) + sneak attack damage with improved chance of connecting (35 x (1 -(0.4x0.4)) + shortsword crit chance added damage (3.5 x 0.05) + rapier crit chance added damage (4.5 x 0.05) + sneak attack potential crit damage modified for extra crit chance (35 x (1-(0.95 x 0.95)) = 5.7 + 2.1 + 29.4 + 0.175 + 0.225 + 3.1425 = 40.7425

Now lets assume the Bladesinger is 17th level as indicated above. Let's modify damage by "to hit" and crit potential. We will assume the secondary effect is triggered:
7d8+dex+int (40.5 x 0.55)+(18.0 x 0.05)=23.175

Consider that a wizard's familiar can grant him advantage on GFB, but not on more than one weapon attacks. Familiar disproportionately benefit cantrips over Extra Attack/dual wielding.

 

[Celtavian]

Familiar depends heavily on what initiative it rolls. We've had familiars roll vastly disparate initiatives than the caster and use its Help action only for the advantage to benefit another player since the benefit applies to the very next ally attack no matter who it comes from.

 

[Blue]

No, I am talking about those cases, where I want to shoot something with an arrow, because my Dex is higher than my int, and a longbow does a lot more damage than a firebolt for quite some time. Only at level 5 and then again at level 17 will a firebolt be more damaging than a longbow.
At level 11, it is about even, with the longbow user slightly ahead.

I have to disagree. By the rules, you're talking about the case where you want to shoot an arrow AND DON'T WANT YOUR BLADESONG. Because if your bladesong is active it will turn off the moment you make an attack with a two handed weapon like the longbow.

And my point is, again, that happens much less frequently once you add that caveat. Sure, you can do an average of 1 extra damage per attack* with the longbow over a one handed weapon like the sling, but it's not a common case you don't want your bladesong active. Sure, it's not unknown and most elves get longbow proficiency so why not carry one. Maybe if you want to do it a first round before activating bladesong and instead of casting a spell and then juggle weapons. But if Longbow is common usage you're missing one of the strongest features of the subclass. It's like playing an abjurer and never casting abjurations to start/recharge your Arcane Ward.



* Sling is wizard weapon prof. d8 vs. d4 is 2 points difference on average, times 50% hit rate for expected per-turn difference of +1 damage per attack with the longbow.