D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

[Thatwhichlurks]

I've figured out how Planar Binding needs to be used. It requires a 4th level inverted magic circle and one of the Conjure monster spells. The circle keeps the creature from returning to its home plane of existence after the Conjure spell's duration expires (it has to be a 4th level or higher Magic Circle, so the circle's duration is more than 1 hour). Once the Conjured creature is in the circle, you immediately cast Planar Binding on it. Once you are done casting Planar Binding, the creature is now under your command for 24 hours (no concentration) or more based on what level slot you cast Planar Binding. This also means you can possibly have more than 1 elemental summon out, since there is no concentration requirements.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I've figured out how Planar Binding needs to be used. It requires a 4th level inverted magic circle and one of the Conjure monster spells. The circle keeps the creature from returning to its home plane of existence after the Conjure spell's duration expires (it has to be a 4th level or higher Magic Circle, so the circle's duration is more than 1 hour). Once the Conjured creature is in the circle, you immediately cast Planar Binding on it. Once you are done casting Planar Binding, the creature is now under your command for 24 hours (no concentration) or more based on what level slot you cast Planar Binding. This also means you can possibly have more than 1 elemental summon out, since there is no concentration requirements.

A few observations:

(1) This assumes that "conjuration spell ends/creature disappears" is identical in meaning to "creature moves outside the circle". Seems questionable, especially since Magic Circle (unlike Planar Binding) has no language at all about extending spell durations, since Magic Circle only blocks "willing" movement, and since Magic Circle allows a Charisma save. Doesn't seem like it ought to affect Conjure Elemental expiration at all.

(2) You don't need a 4th level Magic Circle under your interpretation--you could have someone start casting a regular 3rd level Magic Circle six seconds after after you start your Planar Binding, and it would still last long enough for you to finish your Planar Binding.

(3) Although I disagree with your take on Magic Circle, Magic Circle is still obviously useful because it lets you Planar Bind your own pokemons (ahem, conjurations!) instead of taking turns binding someone else's. If your DM tells you that every time you try to do so, the elemental vanishes half a breath before you complete your Planar Binding spell, tell him he's being a jerk, and that if he wants to ban the spell he should just ban it instead of rules-lawyering durations to the picosecond.

 

[Thatwhichlurks]

A few observations:

(1) This assumes that "conjuration spell ends/creature disappears" is identical in meaning to "creature moves outside the circle". Seems questionable, especially since Magic Circle (unlike Planar Binding) has no language at all about extending spell durations, since Magic Circle only blocks "willing" movement, and since Magic Circle allows a Charisma save. Doesn't seem like it ought to affect Conjure Elemental expiration at all.

(2) You don't need a 4th level Magic Circle under your interpretation--you could have someone start casting a regular 3rd level Magic Circle six seconds after after you start your Planar Binding, and it would still last long enough for you to finish your Planar Binding.

(3) Although I disagree with your take on Magic Circle, Magic Circle is still obviously useful because it lets you Planar Bind your own pokemons (ahem, conjurations!) instead of taking turns binding someone else's. If your DM tells you that every time you try to do so, the elemental vanishes half a breath before you complete your Planar Binding spell, tell him he's being a jerk, and that if he wants to ban the spell he should just ban it instead of rules-lawyering durations to the picosecond.

The rules for Magic Circle also specify that celestial, fey, fiends, and elementals can't leave the circle should you choose to invert it. Also, the circle attempts to prevent teleportation or interplanar travel into the circle(outside in this case) by forcing the creature to make a Charisma saving throw. This also applies to when the duration for a Conjure Elemental/Fey/Celestial(or Planar Ally if you want to keep your gold) ends, since the creature has to use interplanar travel to exit the circle to go back to whatever plane it was summoned from. I just assumed that since that the creature is immediately dismissed back to its home plane when the spell ends, the act was "willing."

I agree with you on both of your latter points, someone else could use Magic Circle while you summon your creature (and vice versa), and it is ultimately up to the DM if those seconds between the duration of the conjure spell and the casting time of Planar Binding matter. If your DM rules that the seconds don't matter, then most likely the Magic Circle would come in handy for Planar Ally, Gate, or one of the UA demon summoning spells (if allowed).

 

[CapnZapp]

If your DM tells you that every time you try to do so, the elemental vanishes half a breath before you complete your Planar Binding spell, tell him he's being a jerk, and that if he wants to ban the spell he should just ban it instead of rules-lawyering durations to the picosecond.

Alternatively, you could just ask yourself why WotC failed so miserably giving Planar Binding real utility...

I mean, it doesn't require a genius to compare it to the d20 version and see half the spell was ripped out...

 

[CapnZapp]

Again, I am not just in disagreement, I actually hold the complete opposite opinion. Int score is more important in 5e than previous editions in my view. As I reviewed the spells, I increasingly realized that Int had become more important than to wizards of previous editions.

It took me a fair while but now I think we might not be so completely opposed

If my argument was "wizards use their Int less often now" your reply and opinion makes perfect sense.

But I'm not. Sure more spells than ever require a check involving Int.

But my point is that nailing those spells is easier than ever (at higher levels). Once you have a "decent" save DC you should probably not reflexively strive to improve it further, at least not without considering your alternatives.

So Int is important in the sense you can't get by without it, but it's not important in the sense you absolutely must have the highest score to be a well-functioning wizard.

At low levels a DC of 13 gives you the impression this will be a hard slog, since DC 13 means almost every monster stands a decent chance of saving, and your prospect of having a "save at end of each round" spell stick around is bleak.

But at high levels a DC of 18 or 19 is massively effective. Why, because the saves of the monsters haven't improved, like at all.

Assuming clever play, that is. You still need to target a weak save.

A monster with a +1 bonus will find escaping from a DC 19 spell almost hopeless. Magic resistance barely helps at all.

At this time, the wizard could well be much more helped by looking at a Dex, Con or Wis increase than to find a way to increase her DC further to 20.

So I'm not really arguing against what you say. Sure a numeric overview of the wizards attack vectors indicate Intelligence is involved in most of them.

And for the spell attack part you're completely correct. If your build relies on cantrips, there's no downside to a higher Int.

But I'm sure you of all people would agree that if you want to simply blast people, you should play a Sorcerer or Warlock or ranged Fighter, eh, Mr God Wizard?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Alternatively, you could just ask yourself why WotC failed so miserably giving Planar Binding real utility...

It's not WotC's fault. WotC gave Conjure Elemental a duration long enough to cast Planar Binding. It's clearly intended to work. In this hypothetical scenario, it's the DM who's inventing new picosecond-duration rules in order to shut the spell down. That's called "being a jerk."

WotC isn't perfect but you can't blame them for jerk DMs.

 

[CapnZapp]

It's not WotC's fault. WotC gave Conjure Elemental a duration long enough to cast Planar Binding. It's clearly intended to work. In this hypothetical scenario, it's the DM who's inventing new picosecond-duration rules in order to shut the spell down. That's called "being a jerk."

Why do you accept only binding elementals?

Why do you make up a connection between the conjure spell and the binding spell when one doesn't exist. Why would the casting time of one be exactly identical to the duration of the other if they were designed to work in lockstep?

But most importantly, why do you excuse the removal of the calling half of the spell without a clear replacement?

And stop shaming DMs! It isn't their fault WotC messed up...

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The rules for Magic Circle also specify that celestial, fey, fiends, and elementals can't leave the circle should you choose to invert it. Also, the circle attempts to prevent teleportation or interplanar travel into the circle(outside in this case) by forcing the creature to make a Charisma saving throw. This also applies to when the duration for a Conjure Elemental/Fey/Celestial(or Planar Ally if you want to keep your gold) ends, since the creature has to use interplanar travel to exit the circle to go back to whatever plane it was summoned from. I just assumed that since that the creature is immediately dismissed back to its home plane when the spell ends, the act was "willing."

Except that elementals and most fey and even most celestials/etc. don't actually have any interplanar travel abilities. It's the spell that transports them; it's not "willing" transportation (it's a side effect of the spell ending) so Magic Circle doesn't affect Conjure Elemental from ending anyway any more than it would affect a grapple or push. (Also, since a conjured elemental "disappears" at the end of the spell duration instead of "returning to its home plane", it may possibly just die/cease to exist. It's up to the DM.)

You create a 10-foot-radius, 20-foot-tall cylinder of magical energy centered on a point on the ground that you can see within range. Glowing runes appear wherever the cylinder intersects with the floor or other surface.

Choose one or more of the following types of creatures: celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, or undead. The circle affects a creature of the chosen type in the following ways:

The creature can’t willingly enter the cylinder by nonmagical means. If the creature tries to use teleportation or interplanar travel to do so, it must first succeed on a Charisma saving throw.
The creature has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets within the cylinder.
Targets within the cylinder can’t be charmed, frightened, or possessed by the creature.

When you cast this spell, you can elect to cause its magic to operate in the reverse direction, preventing a creature of the specified type from leaving the cylinder and protecting targets outside it.

At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the duration increases by 1 hour for each slot level above 3rd.

Magic Circle has nothing in it that would prevent an external force (Plane Shift, Gate Spell) from sending the creature to another plane. Only the creature's own voluntary movement is restricted.

This proposed solution just doesn't work. Fortunately it's also superfluous.

I agree with you on both of your latter points, someone else could use Magic Circle while you summon your creature (and vice versa), and it is ultimately up to the DM if those seconds between the duration of the conjure spell and the casting time of Planar Binding matter. If your DM rules that the seconds don't matter, then most likely the Magic Circle would come in handy for Planar Ally, Gate, or one of the UA demon summoning spells (if allowed).

Yes. It's still useful for elementals and fey because it allows you to bind your own elementals without a helper; but Magic Circle is (classically) most closely tied to bargaining with and binding demons and devils. Don't forget to Feeblemind the demon first so that it can't just cast Dispel Magic on your magic circle and eat you.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Why do you accept only binding elementals?

It's a shorthand for Conjure X. All of the conjuration spells in the PHB have the exact same duration: 1 hour. I could write "elemental/fey/minor elemental/animal" and it wouldn't change anything except adding more letters.

In order to bind demons you need True Polymorph, Planar Ally, Gate, or similar; or you have to catch your demons in the wild.

Why do you make up a connection between the conjure spell and the binding spell when one doesn't exist. Why would the casting time of one be exactly identical to the duration of the other if they were designed to work in lockstep?

So that it lasts long enough to finish casting, obviously. Because otherwise your conjured elemental/fey/minor elemental/animal would disappear before you could finish casting the spell.

But most importantly, why do you excuse the removal of the calling half of the spell without a clear replacement?

Because 5E never had any other "half of the spell". 5E is a game. It's related to other games such as AD&D, 3E, 4E, etc., but it's a different game. I could spend a lot of time moaning about how 5E has "nerfed" a lot of spells like Magic Jar and Polymorph relative to AD&D; I could research 3E and 4E so that I could moan about how Planar Binding works in those games and how 5E's version is different from those games; but what would be the point? Those games still exist. If you like 5E better; play it. If you don't, don't. If you need to tweak 5E first to make it more fun for you, do so.

And stop shaming DMs! It isn't their fault WotC messed up...

I don't know any DMs who are big enough jerks to actually pull the jerk move discussed previously.

 

[Thatwhichlurks]

I think WoTC could have clarified what qualifies as interplanar travel. All of the Conjure spells say that the creature summoned "disappears when reduced to 0 hp or when the spell expires," so you are correct that we don't know if it just fades into nothing or goes back to its plane of existence. I think more clarification from WotC on that would be helpful in the next Sage Advice or Errata.