D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

[CapnZapp]

I disagree with your premise that focusing on your ability scores (as presented in guides like this one) is a bad idea. If, given your own take on it, you'd need to devote half your opportunities to raising your ability score instead of choosing a feat, I'd say that's a pretty important focus.

Ah, then you will be glad to hear I have never said focusing on your ability scores is a bad idea

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

As a wizard I chose to increase my int at levels 4 and 8 since my concentration is usually pretty safe. The DM tries to play monsters in a way that makes sense, so most monsters lacking good mobility get stuck at our front liners. We have faced skirmisher type enemies that have hunted me down, but I have defensive spells like mirror image and misty step to help in those uncommon situations.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

[MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION]

Here I really do agree with you that taking a feat instead of raising int at every chance is ok.

 

[jgsugden]

The answer of "what is best" really depends upon your build, spell selection and play style (for both you and the DM). The most important factor will be what is most fun?

 

[Lord Twig]

What I like to do is spend my first ASI at 4th level on Int. This will raise it from 16 to 18, or if it my Int is 17 I will still raise it to 18 and try to even out another stat somewhere (If Con is already an even number I will throw the extra stat bump here to make it odd). 4th level is where everyone else gets a boost to their primary attacks and I don't like to be left behind. It feels like my reward for making it through the first 3 levels.

Proficiency will go up at 5th level, making your save DC 15, right when you are getting Fireball... And I love throwing Fireballs around at 5th level.

Then at 8th I will get Resilience: Con (Con is usually 13, but not always) to increase my Con save by +4 (+1 for the bump, +3 from Proficiency) and my HP by +8. About this level some serious spells and effects start getting thrown around and it is more difficult to just not be in the area of effect, so the increased Con save and HP comes in really handy.

Proficiency will go up to +4 at 9th level, bumping up save DC to 16. (And +1 to saves, attacks, skills, etc.)

At 12th level I will finally top off my Int at 20. Save DC becomes 17.

At 13th level Proficiency goes up to +5 and your save DC goes up to 18.

Everyone plays different of course, but this is how I like to do it.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

That plan is good. Look if it survives the actual campaign, but as a plan it is quite good.

 

[Mistwell]

Ah, then you will be glad to hear I have never said focusing on your ability scores is a bad idea

Well, what you said was focusing on your ability score "At low levels, it doesn't matter much, since you have better ways of using your very few spell slots than to lock down a monster for a single round maybe."

and said:

"And at high levels, it again doesn't matter that much if you're sporting a 20 or just an 18... because once your save DC reaches 17 or thereabouts, its much more about avoiding the (few) strong saves of your opponent than worrying about that 17 not being an 18..."

So you said it doesn't matter at low or high level.

Is it really a misrepresentation for me to describe "focusing on something that doesn't matter instead of focusing on other things" as "a bad idea"?

I am not sure what the point of "focusing on X doesn't matter" would be, if there wasn't an implied, "it's better to focus on something else"?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am not sure what the point of "focusing on X doesn't matter" would be, if there wasn't an implied, "it's better to focus on something else"?

That conclusion is not justified. "Does not matter much" and "bad idea" is not the same. It generally is not the worst idea to increase your save DC at some point. You should however not sacrifice everything else. If you throw are damages or long term disables, the difference between 17 and 18 may show. It makes everything a litte more reliable.

 

[CapnZapp]

The reason for my hyperbole (and yes "does not matter much" is hyperbole) is to shake everybody that's reading awake from the strategies that they might simply carry across from previous editions.

By your vigorous response, Mistwell, I see that I have succeeded in at least one case

You are of course right that you can't drop your spellcasting ability, and that you should probably formulate a very good reason if you decide to not end up with a 20 when you top out your levels.

All I'm saying is that spellcaster building guides often (but not always) take it for granted that upping your save DC is your best bet, that this might very well be "blind previousitis", and that the new edition might just mean that there are better options on the table, that you don't see at first.

And certainly that *I* did not see until I actually played the game. (If you're just tuning in, I refer to my original post above for the explanation)

Which is incredibly good, by the way! Hats off to the designers if they have managed to create a situation where spellcasters have more than one obvious route to power.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

Here's the secret.

At low levels your save DC is going to suck, no matter what you do. Meanwhile, hitpoint-related spells such as Sleep and Fireball rock.

DC is going to suck, yet you will still rely on it fairly consistently. Sleep is great at level 1, good at level 2, and starting to become obsolete by level 3. Most of the other spells you cast are either going to require a saving throw, or a to hit roll. In either case, a higher Int will have consistent payoff.

But at high levels, your save DC can and will shut down just about anyone and anything, as long as you make smart decisions (big stupid brutes should be targeted by Intelligence and Charisma saves, not Strength and Constitution saves etc). Very very few monsters have great save bonuses for all six abilities.(snip) And at high levels, it again doesn't matter that much if you're sporting a 20 or just an 18... because once your save DC reaches 17 or thereabouts, its much more about avoiding the (few) strong saves of your opponent than worrying about that 17 not being an 18...

Depends on what you mean by high level. My VERY high level experience is pretty limited - so I won't claim to have expertise. At moderately-high levels, like 12 for example, with a 20 Int, you have a DC 17. Even creatures with a save of +0 will save 20% of the time. Also note that there are decidedly few spells that target Int saves (your example). Feeblemind may not be such a gamechanger against creatures that already sport a low Int, and Phantasmal Force is OK, but hardly impressive at high levels. Keep in mind that also you are often facing magic resistance at high levels, which means advantage on those saves.

So focussing on your spellcasting ability (Int in this case) is actually much less important in this edition than any previous.

This is the point I particularly want to disagree with.

Take a look at my 3.5 guide and you will find that I was not a proponent of more Int at all costs - other guides recommended the Grey Elf for the Int bonus, my guide did not - precisely because so many no-save spells were hugely effective. You could make a mid-level wizard who would never provide a saving throw for any of their spells, be massively effective, and that Int score was mainly for the skills. Many of those spells now either don't exist, or provide saving throws. Furthermore - gone is the near auto-hit of the touch-spell, and now your to-hit bonus makes a huge difference, whether just using a cantrip, or more powerful blasting spells like scorching ray or disintegrate, or effect spells like ray of enfeeblement. This makes Int important not just for DC's, but also for chance to hit.

At low levels, it doesn't matter much, since you have better ways of using your very few spell slots than to lock down a monster for a single round maybe.

I agree that is not a good use of a spell slot. I disagree that the alternatives don't rely on DC or To Hit.

In summary, those wizard guides are flatly wrong. They're written with a lot of preconcieved baggage from editions previous. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand it, and I too thought getting up your spellcasting ability score was the most important thing for a long time.

Again, I am not just in disagreement, I actually hold the complete opposite opinion. Int score is more important in 5e than previous editions in my view. As I reviewed the spells, I increasingly realized that Int had become more important than to wizards of previous editions.