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D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

Ahglock

First Post
I agree. I'm sure that optimization in terms of damage potential would utilize a Fighter/Wizard multiclass (Which, coincidentally, is what you had to do in older editions to play the class in the first place), but I think a pure Bladesinger has plenty to offer to a group regardless. Then again, I have always disliked Multiclassing in general and am by no means a power gamer (I play for fluff and lore first), so maybe my bias is just showing lol.

I do have similar views to Battlerager also, which is counter to what most everyone thinks of the class, so it must just be me.

Well yeah. Blade singer is probably the best specialization for wizard. I place it in the way too good category. I actually don't let it in my games as I find it broken. The only thing that justifies 9 levels of spells are serious weaknesses or deficiencies. The wizard has that in spades. Worst saves, crappy AC, crappy hp. A specialization that removes most of your weaknesses for likely every fight is insane. And then song of defense otherwise known as lol boss encounters is icing on the cake.

This guide is taken from a certain perspective though one that I doubt many people will find in play. Where the use of a couple control style spells makes it so you pretty much never get attacked. Which in turn nullifies or makes redundant many blade singer abilities. In play I have almost never seen encounters work out that way. But every GM is different so encounter design and enemy actions will vary from group to group so this style may come to pass in some groups. I'd say how did controllers pan out in 4e if you played it? If in your groups they were a awesome add hey maybe this guide will work for you as is. In every group I played in they were more the well since the real roles have been covered it won't hurt us much to have one, but another striker would be better.
 

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Well yeah. Blade singer is probably the best specialization for wizard. I place it in the way too good category. I actually don't let it in my games as I find it broken. The only thing that justifies 9 levels of spells are serious weaknesses or deficiencies. The wizard has that in spades. Worst saves, crappy AC, crappy hp. A specialization that removes most of your weaknesses for likely every fight is insane. And then song of defense otherwise known as lol boss encounters is icing on the cake.

I must assume that you play without multiclassing then, because Bladesinger isn't the only way to remove these weaknesses. You've never seen a Fighter/Necromancer in play, nor a Life Cleric/Illusionist. Way more powerful than a Bladesinger.
 

Ahglock

First Post
I must assume that you play without multiclassing then, because Bladesinger isn't the only way to remove these weaknesses. You've never seen a Fighter/Necromancer in play, nor a Life Cleric/Illusionist. Way more powerful than a Bladesinger.

I allow multi class on a case by case basis. If someone has a concept they want to play out that needs it that is one thing. If it's just a way to make a really powerful character or is unbalanced for the party that's another. I'm not a fan of multi classing in this edition though. Too much is gained in a 1-3 level dip IMO.
 

I allow multi class on a case by case basis. If someone has a concept they want to play out that needs it that is one thing. If it's just a way to make a really powerful character or is unbalanced for the party that's another. I'm not a fan of multi classing in this edition though. Too much is gained in a 1-3 level dip IMO.

Okay, so the point is that you're measuring Bladesinger against a different baseline than WotC is apparently measuring it against. In the context of the full game, Bladesinger is not an outlier[1].

If you're suggesting that AD&D multiclassing was better than 5E multiclassing--I agree. AD&D classes are based on archetypes, whereas 5E multiclassing feels more like abusing the class customization rules from the 2nd edition DMG.

But 5E's a different game, and unfortunately the 5E multiclassing paradigm is baked deeply enough into the core classes (e.g. ASIs) that I don't know of an easy way to splice in true, AD&D-style multiclassing. And I don't want to live without multiclassing entirely.

[1] Even without any optional rules at all, it's not THAT much of an outlier. A dwarven wizard can have an AC of 17 in half-plate and with Dex 14, which approximate's the Bladesinger's initial AC 19, but doesn't come close to matching the Fighter/Wizard's AC 21. AC 17 + Shield is quite tanky though even before you add in Blur. I bet dwarf wizards are popular at tables without multiclassing or feats.
 

Ahglock

First Post
It usually gets a lot better than the dwarf AC and is for a race with a int boost. If it was just the AC it would be good, kind of on line with the abjurrer or enchanter low level avoid damage abilities. But the concentration bonus is like throwing in war caster or why people take resilient con for free. And hey extra movement to stay out of battle better and a bonus to acrobatics for another way to avoid grapple if you don't have the mojo for misty step. Then the level 10 ability seals the deal where you can nullify enough of a dragon breath so you don't lose concentration.

My basic rule is based on me be lazy. If I have to put too much effort into making the other characters shine equally as you try to trim down the powergaming. If everyone is powergaming it works as well. If only one person isn't I'll work with them to optimize while keeping their concept. But my table has 1 power gamer, 1 dude who likes unique weird builds and 2 guys who don't optimize but build to a basic character concept. It's easier to work with the 1 powergamer to avoid issues.
 

It usually gets a lot better than the dwarf AC and is for a race with a int boost. If it was just the AC it would be good, kind of on line with the abjurrer or enchanter low level avoid damage abilities. But the concentration bonus is like throwing in war caster or why people take resilient con for free. And hey extra movement to stay out of battle better and a bonus to acrobatics for another way to avoid grapple if you don't have the mojo for misty step. Then the level 10 ability seals the deal where you can nullify enough of a dragon breath so you don't lose concentration.

Song of Defense is actually worse against dragon breath than the first-level spell Absorb Elements. Against an ancient red dragon for example, Song of Defense may reduce 91 damage to 66 at the cost of a fifth-level spell slot (sorry dude, you're still going to lose concentration on that one) but Absorb Elements reduces damage to 45 at the cost of a first-level spell slot.

It sounds like there are a lot of things that you ban from your game. That's fine, and you're free to ban multiclassing and feats and Absorb Elements and Bladesingers and Aarakocras and whatever else. Do what makes the game fun for you. It does mean however that when you say "Bladesinger is probably the best specialization for a wizard" I'm not going to take your analysis seriously, because I know you're excluding all kinds of options from consideration which make other wizards as good or better than the Bladesinger.

Personally I'd rather play a Charlatan Illusionist so I can use Malleable Illusion + Disguise Self to play a shapeshifter. If my powergamer instincts get the better of my distaste for clerics I may add in a level of Life Cleric just so I can be a combat tank too, but the real fun comes from Malleable Illusion. I look forward to using Malleable Project Image to "teleport" at will while I scout out the enemy's stronghold from hundreds of miles away, disguised as the illusion of the ghost of a bearded pirate. Information is power.
 


As long as the breath type is one of the five Absorb Elements counters... Did nothing for me last session against a Green Dragon.

Good point.

Green dragons are in many ways the weakest type of dragon--if the party knows what's coming, the 2nd level spell Protection From Poison is a widely-available, no-concentration spell granting both resistance and advantage--but they are the type wizards will have the most trouble with.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Well yeah. Blade singer is probably the best specialization for wizard. I place it in the way too good category. I actually don't let it in my games as I find it broken. The only thing that justifies 9 levels of spells are serious weaknesses or deficiencies. The wizard has that in spades. Worst saves, crappy AC, crappy hp. A specialization that removes most of your weaknesses for likely every fight is insane. And then song of defense otherwise known as lol boss encounters is icing on the cake.

This guide is taken from a certain perspective though one that I doubt many people will find in play. Where the use of a couple control style spells makes it so you pretty much never get attacked. Which in turn nullifies or makes redundant many blade singer abilities. In play I have almost never seen encounters work out that way. But every GM is different so encounter design and enemy actions will vary from group to group so this style may come to pass in some groups. I'd say how did controllers pan out in 4e if you played it? If in your groups they were a awesome add hey maybe this guide will work for you as is. In every group I played in they were more the well since the real roles have been covered it won't hurt us much to have one, but another striker would be better.

I'm not going to disallow it. I have to agree the Bladesinger is extremely potent. They can get an absolutely insane AC. You can still hammer them with attacks that don't hit AC and do hit point damage. Bladesinger is definitely a strong archetype with ACs that can reach the high 20s and early 30s at higher level.
 

Smacked Fly

First Post
One thing i think treantmonk has missed is that you can cast touch spells from your familiar, making spells like bestow curse much more feasible.
My wizard and the teams bard made the BBEG totally useless by giving it disadvantage to wisdom and then forcing it to take wisdom saves, if it failed these wisdom saves it uses it's action on nothing. It got to do things once in that whole combat.
 

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