True 20 - Who here has played it, and what was your experience?

[jdrakeh]

When you said the claims of compatibility were misstated, I assumed you meant the claims made by the design team, but you're referring to claims fans made in support of their system of choice.

Exactly. The fact is, that the official buzz about True20 was well. . . pretty slim. There wasn't a lot of official promotion (due to the slow death that Blue Rose was suffering, coupled with the now publically acknowledged doubts by True20's designers that it would catch on as a generic system, I imagine). The only truly visible marketing was the fan hype appearing in threads much like this one. Ergo, that's the marketing that informed my decision to purchase the core book and bestiary, thus my horrible, horrible, disappointment.

 

[Jim Hague]

I don't think it's a skewed benchmark. To clear, the issues that I faced had nothing to do with the non-standard content of the WLD -- they had to do with the completely mundane stuff like spells, feats, and classes all of which work differently in True20 (spells and classes, in particular, are nothing like their D&D counterparts). This is stuff that many fans of True20 continue to represent as being easily converted on the fly. Now. . .

Unless they actually mean "These things can be fudged or handwaved as you go along", this has not been my experience and I know that I'm not alone here. Actually using the multiple sets of official conversion guidelines to convert creatures, spells, skills, feats, classes and other features of Standard d20 that don't map directly to True20 requires work. As I said, about as much work as conversions to Hero do*.

And again - you're using an atypical experience as the benchmark. Tell me, did you pick up the class conversions PDF that translated D&D classes to True20? As for the skills and feats, those work a great deal like D&D, which some notable exceptions. Yes, things like iterative attacks and AoO are missing.

And as much conversion as HERO? You're joking, right? I can stat things in True20 a hell of a lot faster than juggling the effects and modifiers in HERO or GURPS. From what you're saying, you were looking for something crunchier than what you got. That's fine - not every system suits every player or GM. But you're doing as much misrepresentation here as you claim others are doing, and that's not cool.

If anything, I think that many fans are misrepresenting the system as a cure for all ills, rather than honestly taking an inventory of those areas where it stumbles. That said, this is pretty typical behavior for fans. If you want an honest opinion of a game system, I've learned that the Fan (note the capital F) is the last person whom you want to talk to. As far as they're concerned, their Favoriite Game has no flaws.

And the truth is, all games have flaws.

And in other news, sky blue, water wet. Seriously - you're an intelligent guy...why complain about the fans? To quote the unlamented unwashed of RPG.Net: "Your Favorite System Sucks."

Me, I'm aware of the problems with the rules-set - and anyone who says it doesn't have flaws is full of it - but I also consider it to be one of the best, most robust iterations of d20 out there, right up with MnM. Sorry it didn't end up being what you wanted.

 

[Psion]

And as much conversion as HERO? You're joking, right?

YOU are joking, right?

Speaking as someone who has worked up conversions of D&D magic systems in HERO, I'll say HERO has it's downs, but the meta-mechanical nature of the system makes it practical to stat up a wide variety of characters, effects, and even specialized subsystems.

True20 has a more traditional magic system with a bit more structure and strictly vice loosely defined effects. You'd have to create or hammer to fit many elements to make such an adaptation.

 

[jdrakeh]

Speaking as someone who has worked up conversions of D&D magic systems in HERO, I'll say HERO has it's downs, but the meta-mechanical nature of the system makes it practical to stat up a wide variety of characters, effects, and even specialized subsystems.

Yes, the effects-based approach of Hero coupled with the decision to break it down to basic elements makes conversions to that system very easy. As I mentioned above (and as I'm certain you're aware from our past back and forth in 'sell me on' Hero threads), I'm not a huge fan of Hero. That said, it has an undeniable edge over many systems when it comes to accommodating converions, specifically because it breaks down common RPG effects into basic building blocks.

True20 seems like it wanted to do this but stopped short, which resulted in a great deal of work for me where actually converting material from D&D was concerned. Specifically, finding mechanical approximations in True20's power system that mapped to those in D&D's magic system was often not possible, nor were finding narrow points of commonality between each of D&D's core classes and True20's (and, yes, I took a look at the non-core, supplementary, class conversion PDF).

In short, the points of commonality simply weren't there as a lot of people had reprsented. When it came to conversions, going to Hero was actually much easier (the ground-up approach to effects allows one to create points of commonality between systems). That said, it took about as much time as the True20 conversions did -- not because of complexity, but because of the detail level that Hero trades in (i.e., there's more to a Hero character, mechanically speaking, than there is to a True20 character).

In the end, with roughly the same amount of work, the Hero Sorcerer looked (and played) a lot more like the D&D Sorcerer than the True20 Adept did. Thus, I bought into Hero again and got rid of my True20 core book, Bestiary, and True Sorcery supplement. What I'm saying is not "True20 sucks!" (and many people here seem dangerously close to inferring) but "True20 isn't as universally adaptable as some folks would have you believe."

 

[bento]

There wasn't a lot of official promotion (due to the slow death that Blue Rose was suffering, coupled with the now publically acknowledged doubts by True20's designers that it would catch on as a generic system, I imagine).

Blue Rose was never intended by Green Ronin to be anything but the three published books. Once they finished, that was it. So if you want to call a finite project "slow death" than that's a strange interpretation. If anything Blue Rose did much better that Green Ronin expected, otherwise they wouldn't have taken the chance to publishing the True20 system in the first place.

As for doubts that True20 would ever catch on as a generic system, it's done very well. Currently it's the #9 best selling title of all time for RPGNow.

If you don't like the system, your entitled to your opinion. But with each post you make you're digging yourself into a hole. Maybe you should be posting on threads about games you do like?

 

[ValhallaGH]

Played it, loved it. Lots of fun, fast and simple. Arthurian fantasy, star wars, modern police-adventure and dino pirate island.

Much fun.

 

[jdrakeh]

To quote the unlamented unwashed of RPG.Net: "Your Favorite System Sucks."

See, I never said this. What I said was that True20 doesn't do everthing under the sun better than all other systems (a reality that several people on this thread seemed perfectly content to sweep under the rug). And then I gave some examples of where it broke down for me based on actual play experience. That you feel the need to trivialize that experience by using your own experience as some kind of universal measuring stick speaks to the level of your willingness to take an unbiased stance on the issue at hand.

 

[jdrakeh]

Blue Rose was never intended by Green Ronin to be anything but the three published books. Once they finished, that was it. So if you want to call a finite project "slow death" than that's a strange interpretation.

I find it odd that a very public cancellation of the line was announced if the line was planned as finite from the start. Perhaps it was, I don't know. I do know that its cancellation was very publcially announced. In my experience, you don't generally need to cancel something that was never envisioned as ongoing.

As for doubts that True20 would ever catch on as a generic system, it's done very well. Currently it's the #9 best selling title of all time for RPGNow.

And? How does that contradict a thing that I said before? I said that the designers initially had doubts about whether the system would catch on (they did and they stated as much on several forums). I assumed that this had to do with the near complete lack of initial publicity for the True20 system. I still assume that. I really doubt that the lack of initial publciity was because they had great faith in the system's ability to succeed.

But with each post you make you're digging yourself into a hole.

Am I? How so? Because I dare represent my honest experience with the system? I'm sorry that you resent my honest experience but that's what the OP asked for. Most of what he got was parroted ad copy hype with little or no actual play synopsis to back it up (in fact, so far as I can tell, I'm the only person on this thread who has bothered to justify his assertions with a detailed recounting of actual play issues). Man. . . it's a sad day when being honest puts one in a hole

 

[jonrog1]

So far, my experiences have been nothing but positive:

*In my personal Global Frequency campaign....

God, two years later and it;s still like being stabbed in the chest every time I see those two words together ...

 

[bento]

Am I? How so? Because I dare represent my honest experience with the system? I'm sorry that you resent my honest experience but that's what the OP asked for. Most of what he got was parroted ad copy hype with little or no actual play synopsis to back it up (in fact, so far as I can tell, I'm the only person on this thread who has bothered to justify his assertions with a detailed recounting of actual play issues). Man. . . it's a sad day when being honest puts one in a hole

It's not your experience I have problems with, but I do have problems with you talking through your hat. You've made your points.

I know I've gone on with this much further, but I have problems when people throw opinions out as the God honest truth, when we both know with any system it's "YMMV."