True 20 - Who here has played it, and what was your experience?

[GlassJaw]

What I'm getting out of this discussion is that True20 is a very versatile rules set, but the powers section is somewhat rigid, and therefore clunky on some conversions or efforts. While I could, for example, capture the feel of Classic Traveller psionics with the system as it stands, it sounds like I may not be able to capture very well the feel of Vancian magic using powers as they stand. In addition, the vagaries of the combat system appear to make the outcome of combats less predictable, so campaigns in which a lot of combat should occur (swashbucklers, planetary romance, high action guest-ridden dungeon-fests, etc.) may find themselves derailed by an unfortunate roll from time to time, more so than standard D20 combat.

This is why I still prefer Grim Tales. It has all the versatility and it's extremely easy to convert material from other sources (and vice versa). It's not any more rules light or heavy than standard D&D and it's very easy to determine appropriate challenge levels.

 

[Kunimatyu]

What I'm getting out of this discussion is that True20 is a very versatile rules set, but the powers section is somewhat rigid, and therefore clunky on some conversions or efforts. While I could, for example, capture the feel of Classic Traveller psionics with the system as it stands, it sounds like I may not be able to capture very well the feel of Vancian magic using powers as they stand. In addition, the vagaries of the combat system appear to make the outcome of combats less predictable, so campaigns in which a lot of combat should occur (swashbucklers, planetary romance, high action guest-ridden dungeon-fests, etc.) may find themselves derailed by an unfortunate roll from time to time, more so than standard D20 combat.

The above analysis is based on what I've read above. Please note the use of the word "may" above, as I do not wish to incur the wrath of True20 fans with the appearance of generalizations I do not intend.

Would the above analysis be appropriate, given the statements above as the source of information?

With Regards,
Flynn

Your analysis is mostly right, Flynn -- True20's powers are pretty good at replicating the systems of magic found in a lot of fantasy novels, and you really can't do Vancian magic with it. It's also different than the encounter-based Force powers setup of SAGA - the two don't have much in common, despite similar mechanics on a few of the powers. It's a completely different magic system, which is either good or bad depending on who you ask.

I would disagree with your statements on combat -- the addition of the Conviction point mechanic makes it *less* likely a PC will die to an unfortunate roll/saving throw, particularly at the higher levels. When I was running a True20 and D&D3.5 game on different nights, the D&D3.5 game had something like 10 deaths -- the True20 game has none. That's not to say a player can't die, of course, but that it generally only happens when someone burns through their Conviction to do something very heroic.

 

[Jim Hague]

See, I never said this. What I said was that True20 doesn't do everthing under the sun better than all other systems (a reality that several people on this thread seemed perfectly content to sweep under the rug). And then I gave some examples of where it broke down for me based on actual play experience. That you feel the need to trivialize that experience by using your own experience as some kind of universal measuring stick speaks to the level of your willingness to take an unbiased stance on the issue at hand.

You did see the part where I actually agreed with you, right? No, True20 doesn't do everything. It's a solid, robust d20 generic system that's a good general fit. Note the general.

As for using my personal experience with it? Well, having run it through its paces across several genres...yeah, I have a pretty good benchmark. You're the guy that ran it with one thing and declared that you didn't like it. Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Jim Hague]

God, two years later and it's still like being stabbed in the chest every time I see those two words together ...

It's good stuff, and after incorporating some of the old Spycraft/Shadowforce Archer material, it does indeed rock the house. Some adjustments have to be made to ensure character continuity, but that's mostly in the realm of giving out enough Conviction.

If you're ever down Austin way, feel free to let me know and we'll clear a spot at the table for you.

 

[bento]

Jim,

[shameless plug]We'd love to see you next Saturday (7/21) at our ENWorld Game Day Dallas! It's at GenX Comics in Bedford, midway between Dallas and Fort Worth.

I'm running my True20 historical horror one shot at 11 and Der Kluge is driving in from Tulsa to run a D&D 3.5 dragon hunt in the afternoon. [/shameless plug]

 

[molonel]

Thank you guys, on both sides of the fence, for all of your feedback. I wish I had more to contribute to the conversation than my question, but I've reread the thread a couple of times now.

 

[Vigilance]

JD, I'm sorry you feel outcast and "ganged up on" now.

Other than agreeing that, imo, True 20 is a bad fit for dungeon crawling and action fantasy in general, which I already did above, I'm not sure what else I can do.

True 20 is a great system for genre in which you want combat to be relatively rare. It can handle a lot of different genres, but it's not really built for converting games to it on a one for one basis.

You tried to do both these things, run a heavy action game, *and* make a direct conversion of D&D. I wish I'd been at the table, I would have warned you.

As someone who's done three lengthy conversions from d20 to True 20, in my experience you have to find a solution that provides the same feel. Often this means making things work different mechanically.

But it can be rewarding, and the game system is a lot of fun to play.

But it's not easy or work-free conversion and in my opinion, anyone who promises you that for *any* d20 game is being... optimistic.

 

[Jim Hague]

Jim,

[shameless plug]We'd love to see you next Saturday (7/21) at our ENWorld Game Day Dallas! It's at GenX Comics in Bedford, midway between Dallas and Fort Worth.

I'm running my True20 historical horror one shot at 11 and Der Kluge is driving in from Tulsa to run a D&D 3.5 dragon hunt in the afternoon. [/shameless plug]

I'd love to - I have friends up there - but I've got the playtest game for Dread Seas I'm playing in, then it's my MnM 2e campaign The Incredible Years 2: A Darker Tomorrow on Sunday.

However, we can always organize something big here in Austin...

Back to the thread, though - JD, I'm not calling you a tool or jerk or anything similar. I apologize for the bad timing on my posts that're making you feel like you're getting ganged up on. I simply think you had an atypical experience with True20, and that it's not the game for you. I do hope you'll give the system a chance in the future - because, IMO, it's a good system, but if not...well, there's plenty of games out there that work for your playstyle. It's all good.

 

[Flynn]

It's good stuff, and after incorporating some of the old Spycraft/Shadowforce Archer material, it does indeed rock the house. Some adjustments have to be made to ensure character continuity, but that's mostly in the realm of giving out enough Conviction.

If you're ever down Austin way, feel free to let me know and we'll clear a spot at the table for you.

Austin, you say?

Just Kidding,
Flynn

 

[barsoomcore]

I ran my first Dino-Pirates of Ninja Island campaign in True20 and LOVED it. The pulpy, swashbuckling feel came out in spades.

In my experience, a big part of a successful True20 game is not sweating the details too much. Because the combat round is not as granular as d20 (no multiple attacks, no AoO), you can more easily rough-guess things and not cheat people out of opportunities they ought to have under the RAW.

Ferex, in d20 if you handwave an NPC's movement through the combat area, you deprive your players of chances to make AoO's, which, especially for a character who say, has spent a few feats improving their AoO situation, is unfair. In the simpler True20 combat round, you can totally handwave movement ("He charges across the room and grabs the lever!!!") and it just works.

Sure, combat recovery can be harder, but I ran Barsoom without any healing magic so I'm used to d20 with really slow recovery, too. That's just a style of storytelling problem.

Also, we had hopping vampires. I defy you to not enjoy a game when it includes hopping vampires.