D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

We all have preferences. My preference does not impact yours.

it impacts when I am asking for a change to be made as either an optional add on to one class or a new class and you keep yelling "No...if he gets what he wants I wont play"

I think the reaction is not to @Oofta per se. They can have their preferences of course and express them on a random message board, even the extreme "even if they continue to have great chicken, I'll refuse to eat at this restaurant if they start serving great steak".

The negative reaction for me anyway is because they are embodying a position that seems to come from a vocal minority that had outsized influence on the Next playtest and could have influence on further design.

It's just a hunch of course, but I strongly believe that the vast majority of players would not have a stroke and go play something else if an option like the mythic martial class was introduced alongside all the existing options as long as it didn't raise the power, versatility, and narrative ceiling for classes past current casters.

In fact, a lot of people would choose to play it. So maybe that is the fear? Despite people's insistance that the Fighter is fine, perhaps if this class was introduced they fear their fellow players choosing the new class and then their preferred asthetic and playstyle would not be as common? That seems like extreme selfishness as of course the table could just agree not to use the new class if they all collectively wanted to preserve the status quo.

I've seen no mythic martial supporters that have a problem with current Fighter + magic items existing. Some current Fighter supporters have this view that introducing a new self-contained mythic martial class that could be just disallowed at their table would ruin the entire game to the extent that they would play something else. So yeah, that ain't cool.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Pecos Bill is a tall tale, entertainment that was never meant to be taken seriously. I wouldn't play a serious game where PCs like that are running around.

I've given my ideas on what I think they can be done, the gulf between our ideas is, as far as I can tell unbridgeable so I'm done. Again.

I would seriously love to see you done, but we both know you'll be back tomorrow to shout down anyone who doesnt love wallpaper paste.

 

[Aldarc]

For sure. I have no problem with high-powered anime style D&D, although I think a lower power ceiling would be better for default D&D. But I think the way to achieve that is by lowering the power of wizards and other casters. Let's go back to B/X days and make 6th level spells be the max.

I just need you to know that I love you.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

LOL I think the fact that is highly debatable is why we have these threads.

For many people, such as @Oofta (except with magic items maybe?) and myself, that would most definitely not be high-level D&D, or D&D at all, by any stretch of the imagination.

But, hey, that's what makes forums fun, right?

Why not? Its the reality of high level D&D save for a handful of chump classes.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

LOL I think the fact that is highly debatable is why we have these threads.

For many people, such as @Oofta (except with magic items maybe?) and myself, that would most definitely not be high-level D&D, or D&D at all, by any stretch of the imagination.

But, hey, that's what makes forums fun, right?

Sure, but the real question is that if WoTC decided to open playtest such a class that would be in addition to today's classes would you stand aside and let people that want this in their game design it, or would you threaten to light your self on fire in front of HQ unless your parameters of martial were adhered to in the new class?

 

[HammerMan]

I think the reaction is not to @Oofta per se. They can have their preferences of course and express them on a random message board, even the extreme "even if they continue to have great chicken, I'll refuse to eat at this restaurant if they start serving great steak".

The negative reaction for me anyway is because they are embodying a position that seems to come from a vocal minority that had outsized influence on the Next playtest and could have influence on further design.

yes, the memeification of 4e as a 'failed' edition followed by vocal complaints in the playtest I too feel pushed 5e backwards in ways I can not forgive. It is still good but it could have been great.

It's just a hunch of course, but I strongly believe that the vast majority of players would not have a stroke and go play something else if an option like the mythic martial class was introduced alongside all the existing options as long as it didn't raise the power, versatility, and narrative ceiling for classes past current casters.

where I do agree with you, there is no way to know what % feel like @Oofta

In fact, a lot of people would choose to play it. So maybe that is the fear?

that is what I get form @Oofta a fear that if the option were there people he plays with (that secretly or openly agree with us) WOULD play the class, and THAT is the problem. Not "Well we wont use it," but his fear that majority/larger minority WOULD want to play it over fighter.

Despite people's insistance that the Fighter is fine, perhaps if this class was introduced they fear their fellow players choosing the new class and then their preferred asthetic and playstyle would not be as common? That seems like extreme selfishness as of course the table could just agree not to use the new class if they all collectively wanted to preserve the status quo.

like I said up thread I don't like wild sorcerers... I have never baned them or quit a game over them though.

I've seen no mythic martial supporters that have a problem with current Fighter + magic items existing. Some current Fighter supporters have this view that introducing a new self-contained mythic martial class that could be just disallowed at their table would ruin the entire game to the extent that they would play something else. So yeah, that ain't cool.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

For sure. I have no problem with high-powered anime style D&D, although I think a lower power ceiling would be better for default D&D. But I think the way to achieve that is by lowering the power of wizards and other casters. Let's go back to B/X days and make 6th level spells be the max.

Lowering casters, particulaly in the versatility department is really the better way to go. I actually don't want river diverting martials either if we can help it, but the casters have upped the arms race, which is why we are considering it in the first place. D&D spellcasting resembles comic book spellcasting much much more than common fantasy tropes which has put us in this position in the first place. But that would require an entirely new edition at this point. Adding a single class within current parameters is perhaps easier.

 

[HammerMan]

Sure, but the real question is that if WoTC decided to open playtest such a class that would be in addition to today's classes would you stand aside and let people that want this in their game design it, or would you threaten to light your self on fire in front of HQ unless your parameters of martial were adhered to in the new class?

well i doubt anyone would go that far... I gurantee that some posters here would go to the surveys and (not having playtested) just bomb out the vote trying to get that class nyxed

 

[Neonchameleon]

At 10 and under (the part of D&D that is actually played!), the fighter gets the same attacks as a valor bard, hexblade, paladin, ranger, etc. Once or twice a day they can attack an extra time. One extra ASI doesnt compete.

This isn't quite true. If you look at any of the good fighter subclasses (i.e. not Champion or Arcane Archer) or good fighter feats (Greatweapon Master, Polearm Master, Sentinel, Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter) one of the things that almost all of them have in common is that they get extra attacks or attack-equivalents out of their bonus actions, interrupts, or both.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

For sure. I have no problem with high-powered anime style D&D, although I think a lower power ceiling would be better for default D&D. But I think the way to achieve that is by lowering the power of wizards and other casters. Let's go back to B/X days and make 6th level spells be the max.

I would love that, but it will never happen. They tried to lower the power of casters in 4E and it was a full fledged riot. Pathfinder responded by UPPING caster power (and nerfing martials even!), like a recently divorced dad showering their kids with gifts and privileges on visitation weekend. The caster crowd learned a new magic word - verisimilitude! Invoke it and designers quake in fear at the loudest voices with such limited imagination they couldn't even fathom who would WANT to imagine their character jumping 30 feet without spending a spell slot and breaking a grasshopper leg.

So naturally all the headway that was gained in 4E was tossed out like a sack of moldy tangerines. And we're back to the caster power fantasy that 5E is. Since it's a superhero game for the vast majority of the classes, they may as well bring the 4 outliers up to par.