D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Fanaelialae]

LOL I think the fact that is highly debatable is why we have these threads.

For many people, such as @Oofta (except with magic items maybe?) and myself, that would most definitely not be high-level D&D, or D&D at all, by any stretch of the imagination.

But, hey, that's what makes forums fun, right?

Right, and that's the thing. If the fighter obtains a classic magic item, "The Belt of Spin Kicking Time Reversal", then very few people (if anyone) would object. D&D is loaded with wahoo magic items. As long as the player has the power to choose that power/item, it's really just fluff. It's rare that the distinction actually matters at the table, except as a matter of preferred perception to the player.

You could literally have essentially identical classes, that do the same things, one dependent on magic items and the other gaining these abilities innately, and the only thing you need is a little sidebar explaining how to reskin the fluff.

I don't think it's actually as large a hurdle as it is sometimes made out to be.

 

[TwoSix]

LOL I think the fact that is highly debatable is why we have these threads.

For many people, such as @Oofta (except with magic items maybe?) and myself, that would most definitely not be high-level D&D, or D&D at all, by any stretch of the imagination.

But, hey, that's what makes forums fun, right?

For sure. I have no problem with high-powered anime style D&D, although I think a lower power ceiling would be better for default D&D. But I think the way to achieve that is by lowering the power of wizards and other casters. Let's go back to B/X days and make 6th level spells be the max.

 

[HammerMan]

You mean the optional gritty rest rules from the DMG? Following the soft guidance of 6-8 encounters between long rests?

yes, useing the optional gritty rule (I really like mixing and matching those fyi... It's alot of what I do) is painting over the ugly parts... the guidence of 6-8 encounters does not always change much (as I feel I have explained ALOT)

If the warblade is a mythic PC that can kill people by glaring at them (but it's not a spell or supernatural in any way),

that sounds odd... did someone ask for a death glare. I know I in one of these threads mentioned 'gibs stare' that had a real name in 4e where you basically were the adult in the room and took the you know what out of everyone with a glance... but that wasn't a combat kill power at all it was social power (actually it was a skill power by rule name)

if they can swim up a waterfall, redirect a river, chop down mountains?

those sound like great things for a 15+ level character to do... and all based on literature pre anime/manga/action movie...

No.

I notice you still skipped the why. Why does this class take away if you still have fighter YOU can use? why does something SOMEONE ELSE can use and wants to use take away from you?

I don't like wild sorcerers. I can go on a rant for hours about them (and have). I suggest at every session 0 that the party not have one (as a player or a DM) but I will even let my players play one if they want. The fact that I had a character die because of 'friendly fire' from one sours me to it, and I always hate 'negative to the whole party' choices... but I have never once suggested I wont play the edition, or even a campaign with one. (Well sortof... I did threaten to walk when 3 of my friends threatened to make a party of me+ all wild sorcerers... but that was all in jest. they also were going to be all kenders, something else i hate)

 

[Micah Sweet]

For sure. I have no problem with high-powered anime style D&D, although I think a lower power ceiling would be better for default D&D. But I think the way to achieve that is by lowering the power of wizards and other casters. Let's go back to B/X days and make 6th level spells be the max.

I hope you mean the only way (in your own game) to achieve that. Otherwise, i think you're in for some disappointment.

 

[DND_Reborn]

For sure. I have no problem with high-powered anime style D&D, although I think a lower power ceiling would be better for default D&D. But I think the way to achieve that is by lowering the power of wizards and other casters. Let's go back to B/X days and make 6th level spells be the max.

That would be my preferred approach.

But, on further thought, the classes should able to meet the challenges (i.e. opponents) with a reasonable chance of success. It would be interesting to make 4 fighters at level 20, using different subclasses but none that use magic, and pit them against some sample BBEGs and see how they fair.

So, subclass options might be:

Champion
Battle Master
Cavalier
Samurai

While Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer both use spells or "magic" like effects.

You could even do it with no magic, items, low magic items, moderate, and high variations.

If such characters really couldn't meet the challenges, then there is a problem IMO.

 

[TwoSix]

I hope you mean the only way (in your own game) to achieve that. Otherwise, i think you're in for some disappointment.

I'm just giving WotC brilliant free advice. It's not my fault if they don't take it.

 

[tetrasodium]

And if the target is hovering say 20 ft. off the ground, your average melee fighter will have the opportunity to do approximately zero damage per round unless they have some javelin handy (which do less damage, are difficult to attack more than twice with, in a round, and are less likely to be packing significant magical modifiers).

It is trivially easy to trivialize melee martial PCs and is that easy at all levels of play. We're not talking wall of force or globes of invulnerability or prismatic walls..we're talking 20 feet of elevation (and you might not even really need that)

Luckily 20ft is within range of a 500gp +1 light crossbow a 500gp +1 heavy crossbow a 500gp +1 shortbow a 500gp +1 longbow & so on or less expensive nonmagic versions of those that they could even start with. Luckily the carrying capacities in 5e would allow a fighter to carry their main weapon in addition to any or all of those without being inconvenienced in the slightest. Even if the fighter did not have one of those because the opponent is flying around the prison yard & the fighter is armed only with a crude knife there is the fact that nearly all flying monsters Have few is any ranged attacks & need to come within melee range for the majority of their attacks.

 

[Oofta]

yes, useing the optional gritty rule (I really like mixing and matching those fyi... It's alot of what I do) is painting over the ugly parts... the guidence of 6-8 encounters does not always change much (as I feel I have explained ALOT)

that sounds odd... did someone ask for a death glare. I know I in one of these threads mentioned 'gibs stare' that had a real name in 4e where you basically were the adult in the room and took the you know what out of everyone with a glance... but that wasn't a combat kill power at all it was social power (actually it was a skill power by rule name)

those sound like great things for a 15+ level character to do... and all based on literature pre anime/manga/action movie...

I notice you still skipped the why. Why does this class take away if you still have fighter YOU can use? why does something SOMEONE ELSE can use and wants to use take away from you?

I don't like wild sorcerers. I can go on a rant for hours about them (and have). I suggest at every session 0 that the party not have one (as a player or a DM) but I will even let my players play one if they want. The fact that I had a character die because of 'friendly fire' from one sours me to it, and I always hate 'negative to the whole party' choices... but I have never once suggested I wont play the edition, or even a campaign with one. (Well sortof... I did threaten to walk when 3 of my friends threatened to make a party of me+ all wild sorcerers... but that was all in jest. they also were going to be all kenders, something else i hate)

I recently watched Arcane, League of Legends on netflix. I enjoyed the show. But the style and visuals that included ridiculously oversized would weapons and power fists would never work for me in a standard D&D game. A PC that could lasso a tornado would not fit into a game I would want to play. I don't see any way it could be done in a complete vacuum even if I banned it at my table.

We all have preferences. My preference does not impact yours.

 

[HammerMan]

Luckily 20ft is within range of a 500gp +1 light crossbow a 500gp +1 heavy crossbow a 500gp +1 shortbow a 500gp +1 longbow & so on or less expensive nonmagic versions of those that they could even start with. Luckily the carrying capacities in 5e would allow a fighter to carry their main weapon in addition to any or all of those without being inconvenienced in the slightest. Even if the fighter did not have one of those because the opponent is flying around the prison yard & the fighter is armed only with a crude knife there is the fact that nearly all flying monsters Have few is any ranged attacks & need to come within melee range for the majority of their attacks.

can I just say... in my shenanigans thread I did say that SOME of them were fighters (although rarer then casters) I think I should share one now just for the sake of balance...

my buddy joe had a multi classed character (but still alot of those levels were fighter) and we had house ruled bonuses... but when the big dragon fight came and a blue (so no cone on that BW thank god/the DM) was in the air and as such out of range of our melee characters (including joe) he picked up a bow from an NPC, shot the dragon with a 1d6+2 (from dex) shortbow arrow... then called tripping attack (battle master maneuver) (to be fair he fired twice but he only hit once not that it mattered) so he add a dX (I don't remember what level battle master he was) and the dragon had to make a save or fall prone... the table cheered.

that was game changing shenanigans... right up there with a spell, and it was with a non magic short bow from a fallen archer by a character that didn't carry bows at all...

after game I did realize and ask the DM about legendary resiistance, and she confirmed it was too cool a moment to ruin... I haven't ever told joe that it COULD have been shut down... it is still "Giltar that Magnificent"'s best feat

 

[HammerMan]

I recently watched Arcane, League of Legends on netflix. I enjoyed the show. But the style and visuals that included ridiculously oversized would weapons and power fists would never work for me in a standard D&D game. A PC that could lasso a tornado would not fit into a game I would want to play. I don't see any way it could be done in a complete vacuum even if I banned it at my table.

but I mean just not playing the class would remove it... I assume you play with like minded adults.

We all have preferences. My preference does not impact yours.

it impacts when I am asking for a change to be made as either an optional add on to one class or a new class and you keep yelling "No...if he gets what he wants I wont play"

edit: I have not seen arcane yet and have no idea if it is what we are talking about or not