D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Gammadoodler]

Fighter damage output is far greater than you & the others give it credit with o5e's generally low ac monsters multiplication of modifiers for each attack and the utterly meaningless hurdle of "resistant to nonmagical bludgeoning piercing & slashing damage". With you and the others so hung up about casters it's worth noting that energy resistance magic resistance and legendary resistance are things that can not simply be ignored with a merely uncommon weapon. This wouldn't be a problem if the areas being called for fighter to be improved in were not also the ones that other classes tend to call their niche or at least a strength. You can see a simple damage breakdown here & plus an almost excessively easy to use damage calculation spreadsheet to do some comparisons here.

And if the target is hovering say 20 ft. off the ground, your average melee fighter will have the opportunity to do approximately zero damage per round unless they have some javelin handy (which do less damage, are difficult to attack more than twice with, in a round, and are less likely to be packing significant magical modifiers).

It is trivially easy to trivialize melee martial PCs and is that easy at all levels of play. We're not talking wall of force or globes of invulnerability or prismatic walls..we're talking 20 feet of elevation (and you might not even really need that)

 

[HammerMan]

Integrating multiple thematic casters like beguiler and dread necromancer with Bo9S-style martials was exactly the path I hoped 4e would go.

back when I stopped playing 3e (before 4e was announced) that is what we were doing... and what I would have hoped for a theoretical 4e

 

[HammerMan]

Serious question: I know many people liked 4e, but was anyone actually clamoring for something like it at the tail end of 3.5? I always had the impression that 4e was pretty much all the dev's and corporates idea.

my group (about 20 people back then) didn't call for 4e exactly, but we had left D&D because of stupid high numbers and caster supremacy. We were sick of having to house rule... the first initial announcement of 4e we didn't pay attention to, and only as a few of us (mostly me and chris) started looking into it and felt it was going to be what we needed to get back into D&D.

now when Pathfinder came out our group fractured (and then fractured again becuse some on both 4e/pf sides got sick of the arguments and left D&D or just our group for good), but if 4e wasn't what it was, none of us would be playing D&D at all

 

[Oofta]

Why not? Aragorn is a class.

The niche is being a living legend who doesn't cast spells, and is better than the BMX bandit we have. Hiawatha, who can swim up waterfalls. Pecos Bill who lassos a tornado. Throw a spear through a bunch of guys like Cú_Chulainn. Strike men dead with a glare, boil water with rage, hold your breath indefinitely to pillage a sunken temple.

Since the game is so infused with superheroics that a caster can make a temporary demiplane at 3rd freakin level (Rope Trick), this doesn't seem a big ask. I get you want your 10th+ level fighter to be like a beat cop who struggled to kill some hired goons. The fighter is not powerful enough. Full stop. I want a guy who is at least as powerful as the paladin, and good in multiple pillars.

What powerups would a Valor bard get that traded their spells for other abilities? That's the ballpark.

Pecos Bill is a tall tale, entertainment that was never meant to be taken seriously. I wouldn't play a serious game where PCs like that are running around.

I've given my ideas on what I think they can be done, the gulf between our ideas is, as far as I can tell unbridgeable so I'm done. Again.

 

[HammerMan]

I find that this type of dicussion usually defaults to Fighter vs Wizard, but something like Barbarian vs Druid is about as bad in terms of out of combat stuff, and without the extra feats to try and compensate.

yes this is why I keep saying caster/noncaster.

it urks me that some people pretend armor and weapon prof gives non casters an edge... when half the clerics and some bards have those too AND are still full 9th level spell caster classes.

 

[HammerMan]

Pecos Bill is a tall tale, entertainment that was never meant to be taken seriously. I wouldn't play a serious game where PCs like that are running around.

as apposed to stories of gandalf, merlin, dr strange and harry potter that are all grounded in reality...

I've given my ideas on what I think they can be done, the gulf between our ideas is, as far as I can tell unbridgeable so I'm done. Again.

your only idea basically comes down to "That thing you want to have to have fun, would ruin my fun...just by existing" again someone said it better then me up thread... it's like you constantly telling your favorite restaurant that since you love the chicken they should not improve the steak.

why would the people who like steak having better stake make your chicken any worse? Why is having a new option on the menu next to what you want effecting you at all?

 

[Oofta]

as apposed to stories of gandalf, merlin, dr strange and harry potter that are all grounded in reality...

your only idea basically comes down to "That thing you want to have to have fun, would ruin my fun...just by existing" again someone said it better then me up thread... it's like you constantly telling your favorite restaurant that since you love the chicken they should not improve the steak.

why would the people who like steak having better stake make your chicken any worse? Why is having a new option on the menu next to what you want effecting you at all?

I stated my preference. You have yours. If what you want was part of the next edition of D&D I wouldn't play it.

Why does not wanting something you want affect you?

 

[HammerMan]

I stated my preference. You have yours. If what you want was part of the next edition of D&D I wouldn't play it.

Why does not wanting something you want affect you?

1) becuse you come to threads about fixing it to remind us constantly "IF you have fun I wont"


and you STILL haven't shown why haveing optional abilities for a class or even a diffrent class would stop you from playing how you like?

 

[Oofta]

1) becuse you come to threads about fixing it to remind us constantly "IF you have fun I wont"


and you STILL haven't shown why haveing optional abilities for a class or even a diffrent class would stop you from playing how you like?

I've tried to make suggestions, everything from limiting how casters recover to suggestions on 3PP to buy, to updates that I think could help without changing the nature of the game. I've tried to get a better understanding. But then when I try to gracefully bow out people keep quoting me and asking me questions so I respond. It's a bad habit.

 

[DND_Reborn]

But then when I try to gracefully bow out people keep quoting me and asking me questions so I respond. It's a bad habit.

And a hard one to break I will admit...

I've found at some point when people quote me or ask questions and I have said I am done with it, I will PM them instead so it won't drag things out in the thread.