Trying To Decide...

[Tellerian Hawke]

Oh, by the way, a lot of the stuff they fight (in terms of monsters, not NPCs) has the Paragon Template applied; that means that part of the AC conundrum is the extra bonuses due to Luck and Insight. Is there any way to defeat those bonuses? (I am not aware of any.)

 

[Celebrim]

Oh, by the way, a lot of the stuff they fight (in terms of monsters, not NPCs) has the Paragon Template applied; that means that part of the AC conundrum is the extra bonuses due to Luck and Insight. Is there any way to defeat those bonuses? (I am not aware of any.)

Quite honestly, your game resembles nothing I've ever encountered before. You talk about 'whittling down' monsters, but in my experience with high level play and in stories I've heard about epic play, the more usual sort of play is that if the monster isn't dead by the middle of the first round, chances are the party is risking a TPK. The low epic monsters in my Signature were designed specifically to last longer than a single round against peer foes. I would generally expect most 40th level characters to dispatch one in a single round solo.

So I'm at a loss to understand how you reached such high levels if your players don't have a win button versus everything, as in general, you'll be facing a lot of foes that have 'save or die' powers with DC's in the 40's or higher. Without absolute immunity and absolutely effective offense, how do you actually survive?

You mention that you don't find challenges until you are in the outer planes, but even the rulers of those planes - Ssendam, Primus, Demogorgon, Tiamat, Orcus, Mephistopheles, etc. - are no match for 40th level characters.

 

[Tellerian Hawke]

Well, in actuality, the "whittling down" occurs in about 1-3 rounds, it's just that the tactics involved, and the die rolling, etc. make it take a long time, chronologically speaking. A 3-round fight might take an hour to roll out.

And sometimes, yes, it is "live or die" / "save vs. death," although the players got smart about that a long time ago, and started having the wizard and the cleric produce ward items for the party.

And sometimes, yes, the cleric uses 11th level heightened Miracle to duplicate Time Stop, and then the party (all of whom have Spell Stowaway: Time Stop) unloads a veritable "blast" of spells which occur at the end of the Time Stop spell, usually obliterating most of their foes.

But I try very hard to present them with foes that require everything at once from them---sound tactics, judicious use of spells, proper preparation, and good, old-fashioned ingenuity.

But come to think of it, I am beginning to see that the NPCs they face are the ones that are particularly deadly, while the "run-of-the-mill" Paragon monsters create combats which are less lethal, and more akin to a long day plowing a field, LOL

I have looked on the internet for "epic monsters" and I have found only one that would be a proper challenge; unfortunately, he would EAT the epic party, because he is TOO powerful in my opinion. I am referring to a particularly GRUESOME (yet, fair and balanced) NPC created several years ago by Blackdirge, by the name of Yaghur Hod. He's the ultimate Slaad lord, and his combat prowess is SCARY.

The scariest being they have faced thusfar was the lieutenant of Vecna, an Arch Lich by the name of Deverast The Tainted. He was Fighter 13 / Wizard 36 / Divine Rank 2 and they managed (barely) to imprison him within a soul-draining staff that they got from another lich known as Algothmar The Dark. This led, of course, to emnity with Vecna, which opened up a whole new can of worms. [Ironically, Algothmar was once the lieutenant of Vecna, but he fell out of favor, and was replaced by Devarast. The party had previously defeated Algothmar during a separate, un-related encounter, and when they obtained his staff, they unknowingly obtained just about the only thing capable of defeating his replacement, lol. ]

As to "absolute immunity," they don't have that, but they have HIGH resistances, and SOME immunities, combined with ward items and epic buff spells, which make them pretty hardy.

Basically, I follow one simple rule: I never give an NPC a power or ability that the PCs can't earn or otherwise have. I also make absolutely sure that NPCs plan things out as well as the players do. Foes that they randomly encounter typically die, and very quickly; these types of foes just aren't prepared to face the onslaught that these guys are capable of. But foes who know them, and what they can do, never attack them without EXTREME preparation. Thus, they live their lives on the edge, always looking for ways to improve their buffs and protections. And maybe that's part of the problem; I have scared them so bad in the past, that they have begun to focus more on defense than offense.

By the way, as to rulers of the lower planes, I have taken measures to improve them. Graz'zt, for instance, is an advanced (to 39 HD) Balor, 18 Rogue / 10 Assassin / 20 Wizard / Divine Rank 0. His acid sword is a MAJOR artifact. He's no pushover. And he has hordes of demons at his command.

(I hope my players never see that last bit of info, lol )

 

[Celebrim]

As to "absolute immunity," they don't have that, but they have HIGH resistances, and SOME immunities, combined with ward items and epic buff spells, which make them pretty hardy.

By 'absolute immunity', I mean that at this level if you don't have Mind Blank (absolute immunity to mind effecting spells), Freedom of Action (absolute immunity to a raft of things), Hero's Feast (absolute immunity to poison), and Death Ward (absolute immunity to death effects) up at all times, you are basically dead before the fight starts. You also need some sort of immunity to low level spells (via spell resistance, or some sort of spell immunity) because you are typically facing foes that could summon minor spell casters by the 1000's, so if you can't for example always take 0 damage from the attack of a bone devil, you are basically dead.

The basic test of "do you have an epic level character" would be something like, "If the party is attacked by 500 Order's Wrath (12th level caster), 500 Unholy Blights (12th level caster) and 1000 ice storms (13th level caster), did they take ZERO damage? If they took damage, you aren't actually an epic character."

And then the next question would be, "Ok, suppose you are hit by a Disjunction on round 1, and on round 2 you are hit by the above list of spells, are you still alive?"

That's what I mean by absolute immunity.

 

[Tellerian Hawke]

The epic party is known as The Fearless Five. Three of the five are the chosen emissaries of their respective deities, and thus have been awarded the Chosen Template. All five of them have the Hero Template.

The Chosen Template gives the recipient a few powers relative to their deity's portfolio, and to their position as divine emissaries.

The Hero Template is basically Divine Rank 0.

Here is an excerpt from Feridan Lenslowe's character sheet. He's the party's leader:

===========================
Chosen of Kord: Mind Blank effect always active, Immune to all forms of Poison, Energy Resistance: Fire (30 Points), Epic Toughness (+20 Hit Pts), always rolls max for hit points, result of 1 on d20 does not automatically fail on a Fortitude save.

Hero Status: For his role in retrieving The Amulet Of Selvinor from Gnith (The demon god of Metal, Magic, & Pain), Feridan has been granted Divine Rank 0. As a result, he enjoys the following benefits: Outsider status, Maximum hit points per hit die, Base land speed of 60 feet, CHA bonus to Deflection AC numbers, +13 Natural Armor, Immunity to the following effects: Polymorph, Petrification, Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage, and Mind Influencing Effects. He also gains: Damage Reduction 35 / +4, Fire Resistance 20, and Spell Resistance 32. He is immune to the physical effects of aging (i.e., death from natural causes) and does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. Note: The deflection bonus overlaps (does not stack with) any deflection bonuses granted by magic items. The Fire Resistance is the same bonus conferred by the epic feat, Energy Resistance, therefore, its effects stack with the bonus granted by The Chosen template. The Hero Status Template does not carry an Xp cost.
===========================

So yeah, they have close to what you're talking about. If I remember correctly, 3 of the 5 have armbands that grant both Death Ward and act as rings of Spell Turning. One of the 2 that doesn't have Death Ward is an Arch Lich, and therefore immune to Death effects to begin with.

 

[Tellerian Hawke]

They also have this: (It's the cleric's Epic level ward he created):

Dengar’s Heroic Ward
Epic Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 76
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 9 Minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Touched Creature of 2,000 lbs. or Less Weight
Duration: 24 Hours
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 684,000 Gold / 14 Days Research Time / 27,360 Xp.
Seed: Ward [Base DC 14]
Factors: Nullify the following spells, as per alternative use of the Ward seed (ELH, pp. 101): Slay Living (+8 DC), Harm (+10 DC), Destruction (+12 DC), Symbol (+14 DC), Implosion (+16 DC), Finger of Death (+12 DC), Mordenkainen’s Disjunction (+16 DC) Total so far: +88 (+102 w/ seed.)
Mitigating Factors: Increased Casting Time (+8 Minutes, For A Total of 9) [-16 DC], DM Adhoc: Caster Must Be The Chosen Of His Or Her Deity (-10 DC)

When this protective ward is cast, the caster asks his or her deity to bless the recipient with immunity to the following spells for a period of 24 hours:

Slay Living
Harm
Destruction
Symbol
Implosion
Finger of Death
Mordenkainen’s Disjunction

During this 24 hour period, the eyes of the recipient will turn silver. One hour before the spell ends, the recipient’s eyes will begin to flicker like a silver flame, to warn the recipient’s friends (i.e., the person who cast the spell on him in the first place) that the protection is about to end.

 

[Dandu]

Ok, then, delericho, let me ask you this:

Is there any way (feat / class ability / etc.?) to make up the "10-point disparity" between the fighter classes and the high ACs they are encountering?

For example, let's take Jynx Maylosu, the weakest member of the epic party. He's a Former Human (Outsider, Div Rank 0) 25 Fighter / 12 Rogue. He dual wields twin Katanas (which are both +10 Keen Ghost Touch Defending weapons.)

Base Attack +29

Katana Enhancement +10

Wpn Foc +1

Epic Prowess (x2) +2

Magic Item (Vestment) Luck Bonus to-hit +6

Strength (27) +8

Dual wield penalty -4

Total to-hit: +52 [Which breaks out to +52 / +47 / +42 / +37]

In the aforementioned example, a monster with AC 65 would be:

Requires 13 to hit w/ first attack

Requires 18 to hit w/ second attack

Requires 20 to hit w/ third attack

Requires 20 to hit w/ fourth attack

(Repeat for off-hand weapon also)

Is there anything that he is missing, in regard to his attack bonus? He had to spend a lot of feats to dual-wield Katanas (Exotic Wpn, Ambidex, 2-wpn, Imp 2-wpn, Grtr 2-wpn, Perf 2-Wpn) not to mention Imp Crit, and 2-Wpn Rend.

By the way, another maddening thing is that Jynx is no slouch in the AC department. He has a 60 AC, and can bump it up to AC 70 if he uses the defending ability of each sword (+5 from each); yet, most monsters hit him EVERY TIME. (Ok, maybe 95% of the time, if you count the occasional 1 on the d20.)

If he invested in UMD, I'd suggest a Wand Chamber with a wand of Wraith Strike.

Oh, and he might find a Ring of Blinking useful, if he hasn't got one already, since it grants, among other things, miss chance and denies your enemies Dex bonus to AC. Your Ghost Touch weapons should allow you to attack enemies even if you're blinking and gone ethereal, iirc. (You should probably double-check that one, though.)

I have been told that these characters are extremely weak, in 3.5 ed terms, which just blows my mind, since they came by their powers and abilities through a lot of blood, sweat, and tears.

The phrase "Work smarter, not harder" comes to mind.

 

[captnq]

The basic test of "do you have an epic level character" would be something like, "If the party is attacked by 500 Order's Wrath (12th level caster), 500 Unholy Blights (12th level caster) and 1000 ice storms (13th level caster), did they take ZERO damage? If they took damage, you aren't actually an epic character."

You've obviously never run a campaign from level one to epic. This is the sort of thing someone who's never done it would say. Not judging, just pointing out that this isn't how the game works when you ACTUALLY enforce all the rules.

That's the key to epic games. You have to enforce ALL the rules.

 

[Celebrim]

You've obviously never run a campaign from level one to epic.

I avoid high level play like it was a stinking pile of manure, so yes. I have conceptual difficulties with a lot of the assumptions of 'epic'. Some of the assumptions of 1-20 are bad enough (which is why I generally target end of campaign at 13-15). Besides which, this is the 4th year of the current campaign and the party is 7th level. The idea of a 15 or 16 year long campaign seems incredible to me.

This is the sort of thing someone who's never done it would say. Not judging, just pointing out that this isn't how the game works when you ACTUALLY enforce all the rules.

That's the key to epic games. You have to enforce ALL the rules.

Exactly what rules am I not enforcing?

 

[Tellerian Hawke]

Besides which, this is the 4th year of the current campaign and the party is 7th level. The idea of a 15 or 16 year long campaign seems incredible to me.

Well, we went from 4th level ("Commoners turned adventurers" theme; for example, the party leader, Feridan, was a "war hero," i.e., 3 Commoner / 1 Warrior) all the way to advanced epic levels (average level 42) in the space of 5.5 years, but that was playing EVERY WEEKEND for those first 4 years, and then still pretty frequent after that. My point here is, everyone has a different pace for advancement. At that pace, I think we averaged 1 level for every 5 sessions or so.

BUT I DIGRESS

What I really wanted to point out is that it's all in your approach; if the players are having fun, and wish to continue (the way mine did) why crash the party at 13th level?

Personally, speaking only for myself, I'd rather fret and worry about broken systems, and be forced to make dozens of AdHoc decisions, rather than to force my players to do something they don't want to do.

I know everyone experiences the game differently, but in the "tradition" that I was "brought up" in, you played your characters until they either died or retired. The story wasn't finished until the characters were. When I first started playing, there was this older kid that everyone called "Emil" (I guess that was his last name?) who played D&D, and rode the same bus as my friends and I, who also played. We were age 12 or so, and he was like 14 or 15. In those days, Junior High and High School rode the same bus. We didn't know him personally, but more than once, he would overhear us talking about our characters or adventures (We were using Expert Rules at the time) and he would start to brag, saying things like, "You ain't seen nothing yet. Wait until you get to Advanced D&D. I have a 20th level mage that has his own tower, and five henchmen to do his bidding, and the HENCHMEN are higher level than you guys!"

The point to this being that we got the idea early on that you were supposed to keep your characters, so that they, too, could have a tower and five henchmen, or whatever else high level characters were supposed to have.

And we did just that. If a DM would get tired of running a game, we would take our characters and "DM hop" (i.e., find another DM who would accept the character into his game, and start running that character under him.) The character that my account name is named after (Tellerian Hawke) is a character I have had since I first started D&D in 1979. He started out with a different name, and he was re-vamped across several editions, but he has stood the test of time, and is now an NPC in my current game. [His (and mine) first DM was my dad, followed by Billy, Charles, Marty, Cody, James, Joe, and then finally, NPC status.]

I'm not trying to disparage you, or judge you, or whatever; I'm merely saying that perhaps it would be fun for you to try doing an epic campaign. It might be just the sort of "change of pace" that would invigorate yourself and your players, and bring you some fun moments that you might not have had otherwise.

Just sayin'.