Trying to make Toughness not such a junk feat

[bret]

I personally think 1 extra hp per level is perfect. That way it maintains its usefulness over level advancement yet doesn't build up to appreciable amounts of extra hp until very high level anyway, where an extra 20hp "ain't all that" against the enemies you'll be fighting at 20th level.

That would be almost the same as giving +2 Con.

I think that is probably a little more than the feat should give. It would be about like having a feat that gives +1 to all Cha based skills and ability checks.

 

[der_kluge]

I have two realted house rules:

Toughness grants a number of extra hit points equal to the character's Fort save modifier.

The second is:
Characters die at -con, not -10.

 

[Grog]

But a feat that is useful both now and later is probably superior to other feats, and thus unbalanced.

??? This doesn't make any sense. Weapon specialization is useful the moment a fighter takes it, at 4th level or whenever, and it's still useful at 20th level. Ditto for Spell Focus, Improved Initiative, Great Fortitude, etc. I really don't see the problem here.

 

[Grog]

The problem I have with using the base Fort save modifier is that it doesn't help wizards and rogues that much, and they are the classes that would be most likely to take this feat (fighters and barbarians already have plenty of HP). Ditto for basing it off BAB. I think going off character level works best, though adding a Con modifier as well is food for thought.

 

[Al]

there are many, many other feats that are equally useless at 15th level

Could you care to name the 'many, many' feats or shall we take your word for it?

Personally, I think that Toughness is definitely a tad on the weak side. I like that 3+Fort save personally, since not only does it scale with level well (though not too well!) but it is much more equitable between the good Fort classes and bad Fort classes in % terms.

 

[Nifft]

The problem I have with using the base Fort save modifier is that it doesn't help wizards and rogues that much, and they are the classes that would be most likely to take this feat

... whereas giving a flat number of HP doesn't help Fighters & Barbarians that much, and those are the classes that are most likely to take the Feat (since Rogues & Wizards aren't asked to soak up melee damage very often).

(See, if you change the Feat, you change who uses the Feat.)

My version gives an average of under 1/2 HD to start. Even the weakest Wizard is going to get +7 HP at 20th level -- more than 1 HD. Likewise, the beefiest Barbarian is going to get +13 HP at 20th level -- more than 1 HD.

Monks, Clerics & Druids see the biggest benefit, but they seldom have Feats to spare. Fighters can compete with Barbarians in terms of HP if they spend a few Feats on my version of Toughness, which they can't do under the Core rules.

-- N

 

[Hashmalum]

Riiigggghhhhttttt. If Toughness was a good feat as-is, then there would not be nearly as many people complaining about it.

Riiigggghhhhttttt. Just like how D&D is "obviously" too high-magic of a setting, since we're constantly getting people on the boards trying to tone down the magic. And the ranger is "obviously" lame, because we're constantly getting people doing their own alt.rangers or propounding the virtues of someone else's. It gets very annoying after a while.

At least 50% of D&D players think it is a bad feat. In this case, that many people can't be wrong.

Can you cite a reliable poll, please? "A lot" I can believe, based on the number of times the topic comes up--but as I pointed out above, that by itself means nothing. "At least 50%" is something else entirely.

Could you care to name the 'many, many' feats or shall we take your word for it?

Acrobatic, Alertness, Agile, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Investigator, Magical Aptitude, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Persuasive, Self Sufficient, Skill Focus, Stealthy--When you have 18 ranks in a skill, an extra +2 or 3 is nothing to get excited about. Weapon Focus--at 15th level, compare the +1 to hit to the BAB of +11 or +15, plus the magic weapon enhancement bonus, plus the ability bonus. Diehard--A feat that only works when you are from -1 to -9 hit points isn't going to help when the monsters you are fighting are likely to knock you from positive hp straight to dead. Dodge--It only helps against one foe, and the number of foes you face at once will only increase with level. And it's only +1, which means it gets to scale badly in not less than two seperate ways. Brew Potion--Potions top out at 3rd level spells. And that was without even trying very hard.

Weapon specialization is useful the moment a fighter takes it, at 4th level or whenever, and it's still useful at 20th level. Ditto for Spell Focus, Improved Initiative, Great Fortitude, etc. I really don't see the problem here.

A well-constructed high-level fighter can deal out dozens of points of damage per round. I can't really see that a total of +8 from Weapon Specialization (4 attacks/round at +2 each) is anything to get all that excited about. The 20th level specialized character is likely to have a weapon with a +5 enhancement bonus versus the +1 that the 4th level character is likely to have; the 4th level character's specialization bonus is twice the power of his magic weapon, whereas the 20th level's weapon is more than twice as powerful as his specialization bonus. That's not even counting bonus damage from qualities like flaming, holy, etc., or taking into account the considerably higher Strength the 20th level character will have, or the vastly improved ability of the 20th level character to plow BAB into damage via Power Attack. Admittedly Weapon Specialization scales better than Toughness, but it too eventually becomes obsolete.

Mechanically, all the feats you mentioned scale better with level for a variety of reasons: (1) Improved Initiative modifies initiative, which only increases with level very slowly (not at all, in fact, if you don't invest in Dexterity). (2) As level increases, both save DCs and save bonuses increase, but with a narrower range than attack vs. AC, which tends to keep modifiers relevant longer. (3) Weapon Specialization is unusual in that it gets better as you gain more attacks/full attack action from your BAB, which increases as you increase in level--thus keeping it relevant longer; however, this process stops once you get your 4 attacks/full attack. Even so, given enough levels, the usefulness of any of these feats will scale to zero.

 

[Sanackranib]

I personally think 1 extra hp per level is perfect. That way it maintains its usefulness over level advancement yet doesn't build up to appreciable amounts of extra hp until very high level anyway, where an extra 20hp "ain't all that" against the enemies you'll be fighting at 20th level.

this is what we do in my game. toughness can only be taken once but adds 1 hp per level. and it is retroactive so most people don't take it until 3rd level.

 

[Grog]

The 20th level specialized character is likely to have a weapon with a +5 enhancement bonus versus the +1 that the 4th level character is likely to have; the 4th level character's specialization bonus is twice the power of his magic weapon, whereas the 20th level's weapon is more than twice as powerful as his specialization bonus.

And the 20th level character gets 4 attacks to the 4th level character's 1 - therefore, he actually benefits from the feat four times as much.

That's not even counting bonus damage from qualities like flaming, holy, etc., or taking into account the considerably higher Strength the 20th level character will have, or the vastly improved ability of the 20th level character to plow BAB into damage via Power Attack. Admittedly Weapon Specialization scales better than Toughness, but it too eventually becomes obsolete.

Extra damage never becomes obsolete for a character whose main purpose is to deal damage. +2 damage per swing may not sound like a lot for a 20th level character, but consider how many swings that character is likely to take over the course of an adventure. We're looking at potentially hundreds of points of extra damage. I doubt you'd find very many people who'd agree with the contention that Weapon Specialization is useless for a high-level fighter.

Mechanically, all the feats you mentioned scale better with level for a variety of reasons: (1) Improved Initiative modifies initiative, which only increases with level very slowly (not at all, in fact, if you don't invest in Dexterity). (2) As level increases, both save DCs and save bonuses increase, but with a narrower range than attack vs. AC, which tends to keep modifiers relevant longer. (3) Weapon Specialization is unusual in that it gets better as you gain more attacks/full attack action from your BAB, which increases as you increase in level--thus keeping it relevant longer; however, this process stops once you get your 4 attacks/full attack. Even so, given enough levels, the usefulness of any of these feats will scale to zero.

D&D (the standard game) only goes from 1st to 20th level, and all those feats remain very useful throughout all those levels. Why shouldn't Toughness be the same?

 

[pyk]

Improved initiative is only of value when not every one has the feat.