D&D 5E Two-weapon fighting and combinations

[Gorgoroth]

They probably need to make spiked shield do d4 piercing damage, rather than d6, and 1 AC rather than 2 if you use it to attack (since you're not using it exclusively for defense any more). I'd be cool to get a +1 bonus to AC while dual wielding by default, in exchange for -2 / -2 to hit. And egads, let people wield a longsword + shortsword without a feat, and with a feat let dual longswords be ok. With bounded accuracy, I see -2 to hit on all your attacks could be quite a penalty. That has to be reduced with the Greater Two weapon fighting. Don't like the idea of getting advantage. Why? I already have "advantage" by virtue of getting two dice rolls, two independent chances to hit, rather than one.

I thought the greatest DPR was going to be 2 handed weapons? Via Deadly Strike scaling W damage with level? That extra DPR should add up, especially after level 6 when you get multiple attacks. There should be good in-game reasons to use multiple weapons, such as benefiting from both properties and putting in some use for those offhand light magic items that would otherwise get ignored or end up as shop fodder.

 

[Blue]

Having looked through the package, I have found some effects of TWF, I'd like to share.

- The whip is good off-hand weapon. It doesn't receive an ability bonus in the first place.

- Monks can use their fists for two weapon fighting, since they are considered light weapons.

- TWF works well with the Ranger's Slayer of the Colossus. Unlike Sneak Attack or Rage it is not restricted to once per turn.

Have you found other combinations?

ANY damage that you can only add once per round but chose which attack is also better with TWF. Take Deadly Strike, which you can add when you roll damage. Let's play with the easy 50% chance to hit. With one attack, you have a 50% chance to add that damage. With two attacks, you have 25% to miss both, 50% chance to hit just once, and 25% chance to hit twice. So 75% of the time you're adding in that extra once-per-round damage instead of 50% of the time.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I think the challenge with balancing the fighting styles isn't so much the base styles; it's the inevitable add-ons via feats and powers that result in some strictly-optimal combinations (like TWF and rogue sneak-attack in 3E).

Ideally, I'd like to see the styles balance this way, assuming there's no "feat tax" to enter:

- 2H nets the greatest expected damage, achieved through lower probability of hit but higher base (W+modifier) damage. 2H is the worst from a defensive posture.

- TWF is slightly lower in expected damage, achieved through higher probability of hit but lower base damage. TWF can benefit from a defensive improvement (e.g. +1 AC from either Two-Weapon Defense or a spiked Buckler).

- Sword & Board is lowest in expected damage, but best in defense (min +2 from a shield). No twinky +2 spiked shields to get all the benefits of TWF with all the benfits of S+B, though.

- Single-weapon only should be a choice to match S+B in offense with some benefits via feats/maneuvers that provide variety.

Ideally, the above relationships are maintained even as other feats or maneuvers (e.g. Sneak Attack, Deadly Strike) get added on. I'd like the relationships to scale with level as well, so E(damage) per level by style stays a relatively constant relationship. So if at first level E(2H) = 10 (7 weapon + 3 modifier), then E(TWF)=9 and E(S&B)=8, but at level 10 it's perhaps E(2H)=20, E(TWF)=18, E(S&B)=16.

 

[Blue]

Ideally, I'd like to see the styles balance this way, assuming there's no "feat tax" to enter:

- 2H nets the greatest expected damage, achieved through lower probability of hit but higher base (W+modifier) damage. 2H is the worst from a defensive posture.

- TWF is slightly lower in expected damage, achieved through higher probability of hit but lower base damage. TWF can benefit from a defensive improvement (e.g. +1 AC from either Two-Weapon Defense or a spiked Buckler).

- Sword & Board is lowest in expected damage, but best in defense (min +2 from a shield). No twinky +2 spiked shields to get all the benefits of TWF with all the benfits of S+B, though.

- Single-weapon only should be a choice to match S+B in offense with some benefits via feats/maneuvers that provide variety.

I going to agree and add on. I want two-handed, two-weapon, sword & board & 1h + free to be meaningful choices that are different, not just small numbers variations on each other.

I'd like that, assuming no feats specializing one way or another, the changes were drastic enough that a fighter could switch roles (to use 4e terminology) by selecting different choices. In one encounter the fighter makes the choice to fight sword and board, blockading the door. In another encounter pull two daggers and start carving through a horde of kobolds. When facing the dire wolves later they know that reinforcements will be here soon and their only hope is speed, and out comes the great axe.

This is more then just a +2 AC for a shield or 2-3 points average damage. I want it to be more meaningful and transmutatory.

(Also addressing the last point about 1h + free hand. I wouldn't mind that being the "most accurate" niche. You're not having to focus on two things like two weapons or a weapon and blocking with a shield. Mathematically it can balance. And I can easily envision the rapier fighter in a side stance with the free arm behind for perfect balance.)

 

[Kobold Stew]

There are other weapon wierdnesses, in addition to the spiked shield nonsense.

1. Nets (and bolas).

* DC for bolas and nets is too low (DC 10). Should be modified by your Strength or Dex (if thrown).
* range for nets is ridiculous (20' w/o penalty, 60 w/ disadvantage, except "you target a point in space"). – is disadvantage transitive, so it affects the save?
* neither trident nor net are light weapons, so being a retiarius is out through Dual Wield. (To be fair, this is a fighting concept that D&D has never done well: as is, you hold one weapon in each hand, strike with the net as a melee weapon, then attack next round with the trident if your foe has not escaped; and how do you target a net if your opponent is still holding it?).

2. Sword and Gun (Deadpool, Jack Aubrey, Baby Doll, etc.)

* Unlike Dual Wield, Two Weapon Defence does not require both to be melee weapons, so one could have +1 AC wielding a shortsword and hand crossbow (or sling for that matter).

3. Whip.

* you can use a Warding Polearm with a whip. (It is a good offhand weapon).
* a whip can also give you +1 AC with TWD.

4. Hand and a Haft.

* With the Hafted Weapon feat, does the new double ended Glaive also have reach?

 

[DogBackward]

* DC for bolas and nets is too low (DC 10). Should be modified by your Strength or Dex (if thrown).

I would disagree here. For a cheap, easy, long-range restraining effect, DC 10 is plenty. Keep in mind that you're not going to have ridiculous saving throws any more. DC 10 has a 50% chance to affect a Dexterity 10 target. Although I wouldn't object to a Bola/Net Master feat to increase the DC if you want to specialize. But for a cheap ranged weapon that requires almost no investment? DC 10 is more than enough.

* range for nets is ridiculous (20' w/o penalty, 60 w/ disadvantage, except "you target a point in space"). – is disadvantage transitive, so it affects the save?

I'd agree with this one. There needs to be a specific rule for nets, maybe give them a maximum range of 20 instead of 20/60.

* you can use a Warding Polearm with a whip. (It is a good offhand weapon).
* a whip can also give you +1 AC with TWD.

Yeah, I'm liking the way they handled the whip this time, it actually looks like a fun (and much more viable) option. I have a Scimitar and Whip Ranger that I'm actually looking forward to playing. Very well-done.

 

[Gorgoroth]

It would be better to have a spiked shield in your main hand and the whip in the offhand, than a scimitar + whip combo. I know, totally borked. I wish they'd just stick to -2 / -2 and keep it simple, no feat required for TWF with a normal + light off hand weapon, similar to other editions. Right now sword and board is strictly inferior to shortsword and spiked board, losing 1 point of damage on the main hand for 1.5 on the offhand, with no cost in feats or AC, is a good deal. I might just make my ranger use a whip + spiked shield, come to think of it. Maybe next character, once my dwarf dies.

 

[DogBackward]

The Spiked Shield isn't Finesse, though, and it's a Dexterity based character. Besides that, I know that the Spiked Shield issue is going to be fixed before long, and I don't want to build a character around an item that I know is broken, and that I also know won't work the same come next update.

 

[Gorgoroth]

Ah right. I always wanted to play a human "castlevania-esque" character, or Indiana-Jones esque type guy, who's still viable in battle. Probably the best way to do that is to have 16 str 16 dex and keep boosting those two stats. I am not seeing a huge dependency on wisdom for ranger spell use. Most of them are not even offensive, so you don't have to even worry about save DCs or magic attack bonuses. They're mostly utility, mostly AFAIK.

Aye, I'm also merely using the shield as a placeholder until they allow wielding two medium weapons in a future patch. I don't like feat taxes though, at least not in the beginning. I'd much rather be able to dual wield a long sword and short sword at level 1 with no feat investment, but it takes a single feat at level 9 to use two longswords with full str on both. (also detest asymmetric damage die)

And no matter how they change it, it should still be possible to smash stuff with your shield in your off hand as an extra attack. That's been supported by the game for a long time now. Although that'd be a good reason to re-introduce light shields, so you can treat them as light, offhand weapons (with or without the spikes). A heavy shield is perhaps too heavy to even swing effectively in one hand at all, except as your primary attack maybe. The way I'm treating is, I took the dual wield feat to be able to swing once per round with my shield for 1d6 and no mods damage, that seems like a fair use of a feat compared to Weapon Mastery. But even that one needs nerfing.

The bastard sword was very useful because if you're ahorse you could still swing it one-handed while steering your horse with the other hand, then if you get off your horse, or have to drop your shield because it was shattered or a spear was stuck into it, then you could use it two-handed. I'm picturing the 2011 Conan movie where he does tons of stunts and often needs his other hand to hold onto ropes and ledges and so on, but when he's on solid ground he switches back to using both hands. I want the in-game mechanics to benefit versatile weapons and nothing in your offhand as a viable strategy in a risky terrain.