D&D 5E UA Spell Versatility: A deeper dive

[tetrasodium]

I mostly GM (2 sometimes games a week sometimes more) but have played most of the classes during various side campaigns & one shots I got invited to over the years. Personally I don't see a problem with the sorcerer/ranger things & don't see enough bards to weigh in there. The wizard cantrip versatility I think should be on rest rather than on level & Sword if Spirit did a great job of laying out just how great an advantage it is to be limited by class list rather than spellbook contents. What really should accompany that change to cantrip versatility to give a large number of spells the ritual tag & possibly reduce the cost of scribing spells (ie 50/25gp or even 10/5gp perhaps) but I'm not sure what that value should be pegged at.

As a GM I often have to go out of my way to make the wizards really shine compared to scorlocks (either but especially MC scorlocks) who can dominate social encounters, generally stand laterally to the wizards as arcane casters, & still have good odds for "I'm going to arcana check that". Frankly there just aren't enough times that the ability to ritually cast spells from a spellbook rather than a prepped/known list is useful enough for anyone to really notice after level 3-5ish when wizards can probably have all the useful ritual spells they will ever need & maybe even all the ritual spells they could have.

A final thought ... my experience with players is very few that play prepared casters are super aggressive with switching out their spells. Most players have a favoured list of spells, and they might change a spell or two as necessary, but they practically play out the same as a character that knows their spells.

That has entirely been my experience as well, right up to them saying "I'm prepping $spell(s) & instead of $otherSpell(s) just so everyone knows" on the rare case they swap anything on their prep list.

 

[5ekyu]

That's a weird analogy, but if you're saying it's overpowered, note the point in the interview where Crawford mentions that it's easier from a design viewpoint to make things overpowered in the playtest and then tune them down than vice versa. So in this case, maybe they went for high flexibility in the UA, with the intention to tone it down if necessary based upon the feedback they received.

I think one other important difference between wizard etc is this...

Doesnt the UA versatility require the swap to be of the same level? So you dont have the flexibility anything close.

With the limits on changes at level up and the not change level with long redt changes you remain very restricted. A wizard can decide to be mostly 2nd level prep day in a morning then swap to mostly higher the next. It is truly choose why of your spellbooks.

Very different than being able to swap spell of same level.

 

[Salthorae]

I think one other important difference between wizard etc is this...

Doesnt the UA versatility require the swap to be of the same level? So you dont have the flexibility anything close.

With the limits on changes at level up and the not change level with long redt changes you remain very restricted. A wizard can decide to be mostly 2nd level prep day in a morning then swap to mostly higher the next. It is truly choose why of your spellbooks.

Very different than being able to swap spell of same level.

A Sorcerer with 15 spells known can have a completely different set of spells known over 15 days than they did have. That is my biggest problem with the ability honestly. That sorcerers can completely change out their entire spells known list given enough time.

Sure it's only same level swaps, but still. A sorcerer is defined by their spells known... if they can just be totally different in two weeks it really weakens the class for me.

 

[Ashrym]

A Sorcerer with 15 spells known can have a completely different set of spells known over 15 days than they did have. That is my biggest problem with the ability honestly. That sorcerers can completely change out their entire spells known list given enough time.

Sure it's only same level swaps, but still. A sorcerer is defined by their spells known... if they can just be totally different in two weeks it really weakens the class for me.

Would the sorcerer actually ever swap out the entire spell list, however? I was giving this more thought and I would expect that sorcerers would have their favorites chosen already with only small changes relevant to changes in campaign or need.

I'm not sure there's a practical benefit to potentially changing the entire list after giving it more thought. Testing it more will give more of an idea.

 

[Vael]

A Sorcerer with 15 spells known can have a completely different set of spells known over 15 days than they did have. That is my biggest problem with the ability honestly. That sorcerers can completely change out their entire spells known list given enough time.

Sure it's only same level swaps, but still. A sorcerer is defined by their spells known... if they can just be totally different in two weeks it really weakens the class for me.

Depends on the Sorcerer, I could totally see a Wild Sorcerer do that, and have it make sense. Heck, having access to this feature would make me more likely to play a Wild Soul Sorcerer, I'd have fun constructing random lists of spells and assume that I'd retrained it.

For example, imagine I'm playing a 3rd level Wild Soul. 3 of my spells are Mage Armor, Chaos Bolt and Silent Image. My 4th spell known is my "Wild Spell" After every long rest, I'm assumed to have retrained it. The first time each day I cast my "Wild Spell", I roll randomly to determine whether the spell is:
1. Hold Person
2. Suggestion
3. Scorching Ray
4. Mind Spike
5. Enlarge/Reduce
6. Shatter
Whatever I roll, I'm stuck with for the rest of the day. But tomorrow ... ?

I just finished Curse of Strahd playing a Draconic Sorcerer, got up to 9th level, and if I'd had this option ... honestly there was maybe 1 or 2 spells I would have been switching out. Players will find their core spells, it's really the marginal spells that they'll futz with.

Even Prepared Casters, in my experience, do the same thing. They pick their core preferred spells, and have a few flex slots.

 

[MoonSong]

Would the sorcerer actually ever swap out the entire spell list, however? I was giving this more thought and I would expect that sorcerers would have their favorites chosen already with only small changes relevant to changes in campaign or need.

I'm not sure there's a practical benefit to potentially changing the entire list after giving it more thought. Testing it more will give more of an idea.

The problem is the divide in play styles. Some tables are near platonic sandboxes with lots of downtime and ample chances for character driven quests. Some tables are on a countdown to save the world with no downtime and no time for sidequests. And many tables are in-between. Spell versatility should have an slider meant to account for this in order to fulfill its original purpose -so sorcerers and other casters aren't stuck with unused spells for long periods of time- make it take downtime to change one spell or one long rest. Otherwise we end up with something too powerful for campaigns with lots of downtime and impossible to use in campaigns with no downtime.

 

[Ashrym]

The problem is the divide in play styles. Some tables are near platonic sandboxes with lots of downtime and ample chances for character driven quests. Some tables are on a countdown to save the world with no downtime and no time for sidequests. And many tables are in-between. Spell versatility should have an slider meant to account for this in order to fulfill its original purpose -so sorcerers and other casters aren't stuck with unused spells for long periods of time- make it take downtime to change one spell or one long rest. Otherwise we end up with something too powerful for campaigns with lots of downtime and impossible to use in campaigns with no downtime.

But is it really that powerful?

I was looking at some of my characters and planning out what I might swap out given the chance but there wasn't a case where I would change what I had already taken other than the odd spell. It's not that I can't change them on in such a case but there's no reason for me to actually change them all.

 

[Maxperson]

For me it's not whether it will happen, it's more that it can happen. If the ability is there, then there will be spellcasters in the world, even they they aren't PCs, who are swapping spells like this.

 

[Ashrym]

For me it's not whether it will happen, it's more that it can happen. If the ability is there, then there will be spellcasters in the world, even they they aren't PCs, who are swapping spells like this.

I'm still at the first impressions / second impressions stage, lol. Ferreting out potential downtime abuse with specific spells is something that still needs examining.

 

[Chaosmancer]

For me it's not whether it will happen, it's more that it can happen. If the ability is there, then there will be spellcasters in the world, even they they aren't PCs, who are swapping spells like this.

In the most literal sense of theory? Yes.

In practice, I tend to make up an NPCs spell list on the fly, so I would never even be able to tell if they were switching their spell list every few weeks or not. Either they are enemies and dead, or they are allies and the players are likely only seeing them cast one or two spells anyways