I'm honestly confused how you can tell me you make random spell lists as an exploratory campaign style and then in your example spend most of the time talking about how you tailor the spell selection to fit the theme of the character you are designing. That is not random. That is determining what spells the spellcaster has, like I said.
Okay, I had to go back and figure out what you were responding to that I was responding to (etc) to get to this point. (It's late and I'm tired right now, so I might still not respond to the right thought.)
What I was responding to earlier on this page was an impression that you were saying the DM would just decide what spells were available to an NPC with regards to their chosen role relative to the party, and without regards to the rules. The example, as I understood it, being that a wizard might have a spell wizards can't even have in order to provide a service to the party that you want them to be able to gain access to.
My brief statement about how I do it was intended to illustrate our playstyle differences in that area. My long example later was just in response to your follow-up question (without reference back to the previous one, because I hadn't been on in a few days), and because I was strangely in the mood to go dig up an old spellbook. So I guess I was being careless.
Basically, the point that I'm making is that if I decided to use this rule, then that's how the world works, and if that's how the world works, any cooperative sorcerer can say "come back tomorrow", and be guaranteed to have the spell in question. I don't like that particular consequence, but I would be interested in a different, or significantly revised, variant rule that would allow some sorcerous flexibility without creating those undesired consequences.
Looks like you're right (it's been a while since I ran the adventure). The issue was that both versions of the spell (2e and 5e) have a duration insufficient for the purposes of the spell in the adventure.
That's probably still a little too permissive for me, but it does give me a cool idea. Maybe I could allow sorcerers to change a known spell during a long rest if they have a scroll with that spell, and expend the scroll. So basically, scroll dependent Spell Versatility. I'll have to think about that some more.
It's not ideal, with scrolls being written materials. The spin would be that they can basically use the embedded magic to re-attune themselves. It might work with other magic items too (changing to a known spell that replicates an item's power). I like the idea of there being a cost, but I suppose the relative rarity of magic items might be cost enough.
Okay, I had to go back and figure out what you were responding to that I was responding to (etc) to get to this point. (It's late and I'm tired right now, so I might still not respond to the right thought.)
What I was responding to earlier on this page was an impression that you were saying the DM would just decide what spells were available to an NPC with regards to their chosen role relative to the party, and without regards to the rules. The example, as I understood it, being that a wizard might have a spell wizards can't even have in order to provide a service to the party that you want them to be able to gain access to.
My brief statement about how I do it was intended to illustrate our playstyle differences in that area. My long example later was just in response to your follow-up question (without reference back to the previous one, because I hadn't been on in a few days), and because I was strangely in the mood to go dig up an old spellbook. So I guess I was being careless.
Basically, the point that I'm making is that if I decided to use this rule, then that's how the world works, and if that's how the world works, any cooperative sorcerer can say "come back tomorrow", and be guaranteed to have the spell in question. I don't like that particular consequence, but I would be interested in a different, or significantly revised, variant rule that would allow some sorcerous flexibility without creating those undesired consequences.
Okay, I see where my off the cuff Wind Walk was confusing.
I used that thinking that parties don't always go looking for "spells" they go looking for "solutions".
And the DM fully decides how that solution pans out. IF the party goes to a Wizard looking for "we need a way to get to the City of Karn very fast" they might be thinking they will get a teleport spell, maybe a teleportation circle. But, the DM might decide that they don't get that, maybe because just teleporting there seems less fun, so they have the wizard experiment with a new spell they've been working on, or summon Phantom Steeds with an extended duration, or any number of things that either follow, don't follow, or squeak by the rules.
The larger point though is, the DM is determining what solutions are available after the players ask. If they go to the wizard to ask for help getting to the city, by the time that conversation with the wizard is taking place, the DM likely has decided what solutions that Wizard has available.
So, whether or not spell versatility exists, the Wizard doesn't change in this interaction. Now, it is possible that a Sorcerer now can be sought out and can say "come back tomorrow" but, it is equally possible that the sorcerer has the solution anyways, as determined by the DM.
Also, just as a data point. Last night over at GiTP I ended up doing some work.
I went through the PHB and started listing all the Utility spells I could find. Spells that might be useful after 24 hours. I then wrote down which ones were unique to the wizard, shared between the wizard, cleric and/or druid, and then unique to cleric or druid.
I did it because over there I saw, yet again, the argument that this spell preparation thing doesn't bother the wizard when it comes from the cleric or druid because they have little overlap and those two classes have weaker spell lists for solving problems. I used only the PHB because... it was the closest book to me at the time. I could have missed a few spells, but I don't think that will matter in the long run.
Spells shared by Clerics, Druids, and Wizards that are utility spells (not including subclasses, but they should be included, for example, Knowledge cleric gets Identify).
* Detect Magic
Augury (just added via UA to wizard, yeah, I'm cheating)
Continual Flame
Enhance Ability (added via UA to wizard)
Gentle Repose
Locate Object
Darkvision
Enlarge/Reduce (added via UA to Druid)
Clairvoyance
Dispel Magic
Feign Death
Glyph of Warding
Magic Circle
Protection from Energy
Sending
*Speak with Dead (via UA to Wizard)
Tongues
Water Breathing
Control Water
Divination (via UA to Wizard)
Locate Creature
*Stone Shape
Hallucinatory Terrain
Polymorph
Geas
Legend Lore
Planar Binding
Scrying
True Seeing
Move Earth
Etherealness
Plane Shift
Symbol
Antimagic Field
Control Weather
Astral Projection
Gate
Mirage Arcane
Reverse Gravity
Antipathy/Sympathy
Foresight
Spells unique to Cleric and Druid that are utility
* Create or Destroy Water
Detect Evil and Good
Detect Poison and Disease
Goodberry
Purify Food and Drink
Calm Emotions
Find Traps
Protection from Poison
Silence
Zone of Truth
*Speak with Animals
Animal Messenger
Beast Sense
Locate Animals or Plants
Pass Without Trace
Create Food and Water
Meld Into Stone
*Water Walk
*Speak with Plants
Commune
Commmune With Nature
Hallow
Find the Path
Forbiddance
Heroes Feast
Planar Ally
Word of Recall
Awaken
Transport Via Plants
Wind Walk
Earthquake
Spells unique to Wizard that are utility
* Alarm
Comprehend Language
Find Familiar
Identify
Illusory Script
Tenser's Floating Disk
Unseen Servant
Alter Self
Arcane Lock
Detect Thoughts
Knock
Magic Mouth
Nystul's MAgic Aura
Rope Trick
See Invisibility
Spider Climb (but I will point out Wildshape as well)
Suggestion
*Arcane Eye
Fabricate
Leomunds Secret Chest
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
Contact other Plane
Bigby's Hand
Creation
Dream
*Modify Memory
Passwall
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Telekinesis
Teleportation Circle
*Teleportation
Arcane Gate
Contingency
Drawjmi's Instant Summons
Guards and Wards
MAgic Jar
MAss Suggesstion
Programmed Illusion
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Project Image
Sequester
Simulacrum
Clone
Demiplane
Mind Blank
Telepathy
Imprisonment
Time Stop
*Wish
So, the tl;dr
Wizards, Clerics and Druids share 41 utility spells.
Clerics and Druids have 31 unique.
Wizards have 49 uniques.
Interestingly, most cleric and druid uniques come from low level spells, while wizards get lots of unique high level spells.
Finally, what do Sorcerers take that is unique to wizards, what is there overlap of spells they can use to solve problems that Spell versatility will take from the Wizard's book?
* Comprehend Language
Alter Self
Detect Thoughts
Knock
See Invisibility
Spider Climb
Suggestion
Creation
Telekinesis
Teleportation Circle
*Teleportation
Arcane Gate
Mass Suggestion
Demiplane (Added via UA)
Time Stop
*Wish
A mere 16 spells.
So, Clerics and Druids share 41 spells with wizards that are utility. Some of those are on the Sorcerer too, but definitely not all. And the spells that the Sorcerer takes that the Wizard might otherwise have used as their 1 spell, there are 16 of them.
Leaving, 33 spells still unique to the Wizard here
This is the massive overlap that Sorcerers have with Wizards in Utility spells, the one that Clerics and Druids are 'definetly not a part of', 16 spells that suddenly dethrone the wizard if the sorcerer can prepare them after a day's rest.
I think that really puts this discussion of sorcerers stealing the wizards spotlight into perspective. We can still argue thematics, but I think arguing that the sorcerer is now a better go to caster for solutions, even better than the cleric or druid, is false.
