Unarmed fighting - how to introduce it via feats?

[Kzach]

So, a player wants to play an unarmed rogue. I'm cool with the idea and think that it can be done via feats.

At first I just said he could take a feat and that'd up his damage to 1d6. Then he threw a spanner in the works by asking for a proficiency bonus.

D'oh!

At 1d4 damage, without the +1 attack bonus from Rogue Weapon Talent, unarmed is very lackluster. Sure, he has the benefit of never having to worry about disarming or losing his weapon or having it stolen, etc. but that's not a huge benefit, especially with no disarm rules.

I figured that bringing it up to par with a feat was a good way to balance things, but giving it a damage bonus and a hit bonus in one feat is a bit too much. But then, requiring two feats for it is also too much.

How would you go about it?

 

[CapnZapp]

I would first offer an alternative class feature, to provide the foundation for the unarmed archetype, and also to ensure the character can't both eat the cake and have it too. That is, the character isn't supposed to be just as great armed as before. Being able to assume the unarmed archetype should mean the PC can't also be a top armed archetype.

Then you can add a feat on top of that, to really make unarmed equal to the "old" choices. That this makes this alternative cost one more feat than normal is okay. One feat isn't much of a cost in 4E anyway.

Let's make this concrete by example:

Rogue Unarmed Talent
When you wield no weapon(s) your unarmed damage die increases one size and you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls. Choose this instead of Rogue Weapon Talent at character generation.

Unarmed Focus Feat
When you wield no weapon(s) your unarmed damage die increases one size and you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls. This feat does not stack with Weapon Focus.

In the end, your unarmed attacks do d8's for damage with a +2 bonus to stand-in for any proficiency bonus.

Note: I haven't gone through the entire lists of feats and powers. It's probably a good idea to do so, making sure this unarmed character has enough options to enhance his unarmed attacks. You also need to fashion special magic items that replace magic weapons. This only provides a baseline, enough to start out.

(Obviously all of this assumes you can't wait for the Monk class. Once that's released, I recommend you to withdraw all home-brewed unarmed support. This is the easiest way to ensure no class encroaches on the Monk's territory, and avoids any scenarios where the Monk isn't the best choice for the unarmed archetype.)

 

[Kzach]

Thanks.

I actually had this exact brain storm almost immediately after I posted.

I replaced the Rogue Weapon Talent with Unarmed Fighting. I gave it a +3 proficiency bonus though as I felt it was about right to do so given daggers get an extra +1 with this ability on top of their proficiency bonus.

I also allowed (as the players idea) for gloves to be a stand-in for weapons. This works well since it both denies the character a weapon (well, not really, but...) and therefore an extra power, and it takes up a slot that would normally grant an extra power.

With two feats to up the dice damage, one to 1d6 and the next to 1d8, I think that works rather well within the current system. It's an extra feat so again it feels balanced to me against the advantage of not requiring a weapon.

 

[CapnZapp]

Of course, the easiest solution is simply to reskin daggers as "unarmed" weapons.

(That is, everything stays exactly the same, only whenever the PC is described, he's described as being unarmed)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Your problems are two-fold:
- No proficiency bonus
- no enhancement bonus

For the no proficiency bonus, you can use - as you did - something like a special Rogue Weapon Talent. (Personally, I prefer a feat so that every class can do this. But a Rogue Weapon Talent might be required to allow the use of unarmed attacks with sneak attack and rogue powers.)

For enhancement bonus, you need to either come up with a new type of implement/weapon that benefits unarmed attacks. Or you can indeed use items for the hand slots (everything except shields). Use the existing gloves, and for every 5 levels, they grant a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage and +1d6 to critical hits.
(Bonuses by Level: Level 1-5: +1; Level 6-10: +2; Level 11-15: +3; Level 16-20: +4; Level 21-25: +5; Level 26-30: +6).


I remember there was one (or more) thread about the topics of unarmed strikes and feats to improve them. Might want to look around for that. I think my suggestion was a feat for +3 proficiency bonus and 1d6 damage (off-hand property), but another poster said this might be too good (basically I balanced it around what superior weapon proficiency would give you, and ignored the small fact that you can't be disarmed)

 

[Zero Cochrane]

A number of months ago, unarmed combat was discussed on these forums. I don't know where to find the thread anymore, so I will re-print my contribution here.
I think you will find it suitable for your unarmed rogue.


D&D 4e
MARTIAL ARTS FEATS
by Mark Janecka

Note: These feats may be revised depending on new official rules for unarmed combat.

HEROIC TIER
The feats below are available to a character of any level who meets the prerequisites.

Agile Defense I adapted from Martial Arts from Star Wars Saga Edition
You are adept at dodging attacks.
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Martial Arts I
Benefit: If you are wearing armor no heavier than cloth, you gain a +1 feat bonus to Armor Class and to Reflex defense.

Blocking Defense I
You can block blows as if using a light shield.
Prerequisites: Strength 13, Dexterity 13, Martial Arts I
Benefit: If you are not using a shield, you gain a +1 shield bonus to Armor Class and to Reflex defense.

Martial Arts I adapted from Star Wars Saga Edition
You are adept at fighting unarmed.
Benefit: You gain a +2 proficiency bonus to attack rolls with your unarmed attacks. In addition, damage dealt by your unarmed attacks increases by one die step: 1d4 becomes 1d6. The die becomes two dice when you reach 21st level. This may be used as a basic attack (see page 287 of the Player's Handbook).
Special: Your unarmed attack is a natural weapon. You are considered to be wielding an off-hand melee weapon in each hand for the purpose of prerequisites and requirements for feats and powers that use weapons. A ranger can use unarmed attacks in place of wielding two melee weapons. A rogue can use an unarmed attack instead of wielding a light blade.

Versatile Unarmed Strike adapted from the 3rd edition Players Handbook II
You employ a variety of unarmed fighting styles, allowing you to alter the type of damage your attacks deal.
Prerequisite: Strength 13, Martial Arts I
Benefit: Your unarmed attacks deal your choice of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. As a result, you can optimize the effect of each strike. You cause +1 damage when you hit with an unarmed attack.
Special: You may use this feat to satisfy the prerequisites and requirements for any feat or power that requires the use of any specific type of melee weapon, unless your weapon must have the Reach property. You may apply the Weapon Focus feat to unarmed attacks.


PARAGON TIER
Any feat in this section is available to a character of 11th level or higher who meets the prerequisites.

Agile Defense II
You are experienced at dodging attacks.
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Agile Defense I, Martial Arts I
Benefit: If you are wearing armor no heavier than cloth, you gain an additional +1 feat bonus (for a total of +2) to Armor Class and to Reflex defense.

Blocking Defense II
You can block blows as if using a heavy shield.
Prerequisites: Strength 13, Dexterity 13, Blocking Defense I, Martial Arts I
Benefit: If you are not using a shield, you gain an additional +1 shield bonus (for a total of +2) to Armor Class and to Reflex defense.

Martial Arts II adapted from Star Wars Saga Edition
You are experienced at fighting unarmed.
Prerequisite: Martial Arts I
Benefit: You gain an additional +2 proficiency bonus (for a total of +4) to attack rolls with your unarmed attacks. In addition, damage dealt by your unarmed attacks increases by one die step: 1d6 becomes 1d8. As with other basic attacks, the die becomes two dice when you reach 21st level.


EPIC TIER
Any feat in this section is available to a character of 21st level or higher who meets the prerequisites.

Agile Defense III
You are accomplished at dodging attacks.
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Agile Defense I, Agile Defense II, Martial Arts I
Benefit: If you are wearing armor no heavier than cloth, you gain an additional +2 feat bonus (for a total of +4) to Armor Class and to Reflex defense.

Blocking Defense III
You can block blows as if using an enhanced shield.
Prerequisites: Strength 13, Dexterity 13, Blocking Defense I, Blocking Defense II, Martial Arts I
Benefit: If you are not using a shield, you gain an additional +2 shield bonus (for a total of +4) to Armor Class and to Reflex defense.

Martial Arts III adapted from Star Wars Saga Edition
You are accomplished at fighting unarmed.
Prerequisite: Martial Arts I, Martial Arts II
Benefit: You gain an additional +2 proficiency bonus (for a total of +6) to attack rolls with your unarmed attacks. In addition, damage dealt by your unarmed attacks increases by one die step: 1d8 becomes 1d10. As with other basic attacks, this die becomes two dice because you have reached 21st level.

--

 

[CapnZapp]

A number of months ago, unarmed combat was discussed on these forums. I don't know where to find the thread anymore, so I will re-print my contribution here.

Generally this reads very well. I'm sure any kinks has been ironed out a long time ago.

However, I have a few questions:

Versatile Unarmed Strike adapted from the 3rd edition Players Handbook II
You employ a variety of unarmed fighting styles, allowing you to alter the type of damage your attacks deal.
Prerequisite: Strength 13, Martial Arts I
Benefit: Your unarmed attacks deal your choice of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. As a result, you can optimize the effect of each strike. You cause +1 damage when you hit with an unarmed attack.
Special: You may use this feat to satisfy the prerequisites and requirements for any feat or power that requires the use of any specific type of melee weapon, unless your weapon must have the Reach property. You may apply the Weapon Focus feat to unarmed attacks.

What is the benefit of the benefit? As far as I am aware, 4E damage types include Acid, Cold, Fire, Force, Lightning, Necrotic, Poison, Psychic, Radiant, and Thunder. Not Bludgeoning, Piercing or Slashing. Isn't this leftovers from 3E that should be removed?

Regarding Special: Isn't this a bit too sweeping... I could be wrong, but theoretically this feat would allow a Fighter to take the Swordmaster Path paragon path and use features such as Steel Grace or Steel Blitz (p88) unarmed, yes?

Martial Arts I adapted from Star Wars Saga Edition
You are adept at fighting unarmed.
Benefit: You gain a +2 proficiency bonus to attack rolls with your unarmed attacks. In addition, damage dealt by your unarmed attacks increases by one die step: 1d4 becomes 1d6. The die becomes two dice when you reach 21st level. This may be used as a basic attack (see page 287 of the Player's Handbook).
Special: Your unarmed attack is a natural weapon. You are considered to be wielding an off-hand melee weapon in each hand for the purpose of prerequisites and requirements for feats and powers that use weapons. A ranger can use unarmed attacks in place of wielding two melee weapons. A rogue can use an unarmed attack instead of wielding a light blade.

Generally, do you really need those two last sentences?

(As clarifications, they're okay. As special cases, however, they're too specific. If the latter, it would be better if the general rule was phrased in such a way as to negate the need for special rules for specific classes. Otherwise, the rule will possibly need amendments for each new class published...)

One more thing: How does this (="A ranger can use unarmed attacks in place of wielding two melee weapons") interact with the Ranger's Two-Blade Fighting Style, if at all?

Thanks,
Zapp

 

[Cadfan]

I'd do three things.

1. I'd reskin daggers as unarmed fighting.
2. I'd let him use magic gloves for enhancement bonuses.
3. Then I'd require him to take the Quickdraw feat.

So you're probably wondering about the third. Well, unarmed fighting never has to be drawn, does it. Its always around. Its even perfectly concealable. That's a free benefit, so I'd require him to take the feat that gives most of that benefit to other classes. That puts him on par with everyone else mechanically as much as I possibly can.

 

[Zero Cochrane]

---

generally this reads very well. I'm sure any kinks has been ironed out a long time ago.

However, i have a few questions:

What is the benefit of the benefit? As far as i am aware, 4e damage types include acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, necrotic, poison, psychic, radiant, and thunder. Not bludgeoning, piercing or slashing. Isn't this leftovers from 3e that should be removed?

the bludgeoning/piercing/slashing reference is flavour text upon which i based the new version of the feat. Its main game effect is to give a +1 to damage.

regarding special: Isn't this a bit too sweeping... I could be wrong, but theoretically this feat would allow a fighter to take the swordmaster path paragon path and use features such as steel grace or steel blitz (p88) unarmed, yes?

the 'special' is intended to be sweeping. This feat has two prerequisites and doesn't do a lot with only +1 damage. It is also intended to allow an unarmed character to use powers normally available only to character who wields particular weapons, otherwise an unarmed figher would still be required to use weapons for many powers. It's usually easy to reskin weapon-use powers to apply to unarmed attacks.

generally, do you really need those two last sentences?

(as clarifications, they're okay. As special cases, however, they're too specific. If the latter, it would be better if the general rule was phrased in such a way as to negate the need for special rules for specific classes. Otherwise, the rule will possibly need amendments for each new class published...)

they are clarifications, so no one wonders if a specific power can be used with the feat. I see the ranger and rogue classes as very adaptable to unarmed martial arts, so warrant a specific mention.

one more thing: How does this (="a ranger can use unarmed attacks in place of wielding two melee weapons") interact with the ranger's two-blade fighting style, if at all?

it means that a character with the feat can substitute one or both melee weapons with an unarmed attack and still gain the benefits of the ranger's two-blade fighting style.

-- zc

thanks,
zapp

---

 

[Auronite]

Curious. How do you handle someone making an unarmed attack in combat?

I fall back to 3E, where it provoked an (edit: opportunity) melee attack, and did zip for damage, like d4. However, I would scale up the damage based on character class and level, so a fighter would do more like d8, etc. I'm just wondering what everyone else does with this.

Off topic: I allow a shield bash as a minor action. I'll tend to allow this because, since there is little bonus to hit, and it does lackluster damage, which I base on the size of the shield, and whether or not it is spiked. This is not what... I think it is Adventurer's Vault, that's not what the book says to do for damage, and you have to take a Superior Weapon Proficiency for it... all for being able to do a 1d10+2 instead of a standard action like Dual Strike? No way, I say. Obviously, if they take the proficiency there is a bonus to hit, and then it becomes a standard action because they are making a real attempt to hit.

Personally I liked the "you get more attacks as you level up" style of (the edition which will otherwise not be named) 2E.