unarmed ninja?

[RigaMortus2]

hooohooooo that sounds saweeeeeet

but isn't the ghost step invisible enough to deny the dex bonus?

My only gripe w/ the Ninja is that eventually they'll run out of ki (and ghost step). Then they are about as good as a wizard who cast their last spell for the day.

To somewhat "remedy" this, there is a 2nd lvl maneuver from Book of 9 Swords that basically gives you the ghost step ability (it applies greater invis for 1 round). Once you use the maneuver, you'll need to recover it, so you are limited to using it every other round, but you can still take advantage of it all day long and it won't ever "permanently" run out for the day.

So how does one get it? Well, you could dip into Swordsage OR you could take Martial Study feat at character level 6 and pick it up that way. If you get the maneuver via the feat (rather than the swordsage class), you also need to pick up Adaptative Style feat (probably at character level 9 would be the soonest) so you can recover the maneuver during combat. Otherwise you'll be limited to using it 1/encounter vs 1/every other round.

Just give you some more options

 

[MongooseFamiliar]

My only gripe w/ the Ninja is that eventually they'll run out of ki (and ghost step). Then they are about as good as a wizard who cast their last spell for the day.

To somewhat "remedy" this, there is a 2nd lvl maneuver from Book of 9 Swords that basically gives you the ghost step ability (it applies greater invis for 1 round). Once you use the maneuver, you'll need to recover it, so you are limited to using it every other round, but you can still take advantage of it all day long and it won't ever "permanently" run out for the day.

So how does one get it? Well, you could dip into Swordsage OR you could take Martial Study feat at character level 6 and pick it up that way. If you get the maneuver via the feat (rather than the swordsage class), you also need to pick up Adaptative Style feat (probably at character level 9 would be the soonest) so you can recover the maneuver during combat. Otherwise you'll be limited to using it 1/encounter vs 1/every other round.

Just give you some more options

Aye, that is a limiting factor. Complete Scoundrel helps with the ki pool issue a bit with the new feats, and I've mentioned some ways of getting the sudden strike in without using the ki pool. It is no different than any other use per day ability. You just have to plan it out.

Incidentally, I prefer the ki ghost step to the swordsage ghost step since you will probably only get one use of the ability per battle with the swordsage unless you spend the full round to regain it. Ninjas can use it as long as they have ki, which can be a decent number when you get higher and add on + wisdom items. Of course, you can just take a one-level dip of swordsage after level 4 and get the best of both worlds.

Oh, and RigaMortus- reread Adaptive Style. If you are going by the actual text of the feat, it doesn't allow Swordsages to recover maneuvers during combat, just change the ones he has readied. Crusaders are the only ones who can recover maneuvers using Adaptive Style. A lot of people seem to be reading the text they wish was there rather than what is actually printed on the page for that particular feat.

 

[Shazman]

I would get two levels of monk, three levels of swordsage and take ninja for the rest of you levels. Be sure to get superior unarmed strike at 6th level. Get snap kick at 9th level. Get some shadow hand manuevers and assassain's stance from swordsage. Get weapon finesse if your str is low. That's about all I have for now.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Oh, and RigaMortus- reread Adaptive Style. If you are going by the actual text of the feat, it doesn't allow Swordsages to recover maneuvers during combat, just change the ones he has readied. Crusaders are the only ones who can recover maneuvers using Adaptive Style. A lot of people seem to be reading the text they wish was there rather than what is actually printed on the page for that particular feat.

So you can change the maneuvers you have readied, right? This we both agree on? Ok, go to the section in Bo9S that describes Readying maneuvers and see what it says there. I don't have the book in front of me, but I will paraphrase... Whenever you Ready maneuvers, they become immediately available to you. Normally Readying maneuvers takes 5 minutes to do. The only thing Adaptive Style does is change the time requirement of Readying maneuvers from 5 minutes to a full-round action. Pretty sweet, huh?

 

[MongooseFamiliar]

So you can change the maneuvers you have readied, right? This we both agree on? Ok, go to the section in Bo9S that describes Readying maneuvers and see what it says there. I don't have the book in front of me, but I will paraphrase... Whenever you Ready maneuvers, they become immediately available to you. Normally Readying maneuvers takes 5 minutes to do. The only thing Adaptive Style does is change the time requirement of Readying maneuvers from 5 minutes to a full-round action. Pretty sweet, huh?

Note: This is the last time I'm discussing this issue in this thread. It isn't fair to derail it with our arguement. If you care to continue it and bring other folks into the debate, we can start a separate thread.

Readying Maneuvers on p. 38 - "Maneuvers require preparation in the form of exercise, prayer, meditation, or simple mental rehearsal...each class requires 5 minutes of preparation time...you can exchange your previously chosen set of readied maneuvers for a new set of readied maneuvers." Nothing covered here about recovering, just preparing.

Recovering Maneuvers on p. 40 - Interestingly enough, it doesn't mention Adaptive Style here. "You begin each encounter with all your readied maneuvers unexpended. When you initiate a maneuver, it is expended - you cannot use it again UNTIL YOU RECOVER IT. You can recover expended maneuvers in two ways: through special actions (the ones listed are the same as those in each class listing) or the end of battle."

Adaptive Style on p. 28 - "You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action. Normal: You can change maneuvers only by spending 5 minutes to do so." The benefit seems to be that if you get into an unexpected situation you can tailor your maneuvers to the situation in one round rather than having to spend five minutes. Except for the crusader, nothing is mentioned regarding RECOVERING maneuvers.

Sorry, but I don't think Adaptive Style can just remove the necessary limiter on the Swordsage's power. They know more maneuvers and can have more readied than either of the other classes. The trade-off is that they can't get them back as quickly.

Reading "change readied maneuvers" as "I get to use everything again" is pretty selective interpretation and totally ignoring A) the text of the Adaptive Style feat and B) the Recovering Maneuvers text on p. 40. It is, to be blunt, wishful thinking.

And that CONCLUDES any more discussion of this topic in this thread. If anyone wishes to continue, let's take it elsewhere and return to discussion of unarmed ninjas.

Speaking of, in the Swordsage description in the ToB there is the unarmed adaptation on p. 20. You get the monk's unarmed strike progression in exchange for the light armor proficiency. Swordsages also get Weapon Focus for the weapons of a particular discipline at first level, and unarmed strike is a favored weapon for Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and Tiger Claw. Shadow Hand is my favorite ninja-type school, though Tiger Claw's leap attacks would mesh beautifully with the jump bonuses that ninjas get. Half of non-martial adept class levels stack with your martial adept class for determining which maneuvers you can get, so a single-level Swordsage dip after level 3 would let you access Shadow Jaunt (teleport 50ft through Shadows) and Cloak of Deception (like an endless Ghost Step if you are out of battle) and Child of Shadows (Stance that gives you 20% concealment as long as you move). If you dip after fifth level you could get Assassin's stance for +2d6 sneak attack or Dance of the Spider Stance for spider climb as well as a strike that deals 4 points of strength damage.

I'm not sure I'd go for more than one level of Swordsage if I was playing a ninja or a monk, but that is because I really like the class abilities and I don't want to dilute the flavor there too much, but that's just my opinion, and some of the better optimizers can probably advise you on how to get the most out of a combo with any of those.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Note: This is the last time I'm discussing this issue in this thread. It isn't fair to derail it with our arguement. If you care to continue it and bring other folks into the debate, we can start a separate thread.

Readying Maneuvers on p. 38 - "Maneuvers require preparation in the form of exercise, prayer, meditation, or simple mental rehearsal...each class requires 5 minutes of preparation time...you can exchange your previously chosen set of readied maneuvers for a new set of readied maneuvers." Nothing covered here about recovering, just preparing.

Recovering Maneuvers on p. 40 - Interestingly enough, it doesn't mention Adaptive Style here. "You begin each encounter with all your readied maneuvers unexpended. When you initiate a maneuver, it is expended - you cannot use it again UNTIL YOU RECOVER IT. You can recover expended maneuvers in two ways: through special actions (the ones listed are the same as those in each class listing) or the end of battle."

Adaptive Style on p. 28 - "You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action. Normal: You can change maneuvers only by spending 5 minutes to do so." The benefit seems to be that if you get into an unexpected situation you can tailor your maneuvers to the situation in one round rather than having to spend five minutes. Except for the crusader, nothing is mentioned regarding RECOVERING maneuvers.

Sorry, but I don't think Adaptive Style can just remove the necessary limiter on the Swordsage's power. They know more maneuvers and can have more readied than either of the other classes. The trade-off is that they can't get them back as quickly.

Reading "change readied maneuvers" as "I get to use everything again" is pretty selective interpretation and totally ignoring A) the text of the Adaptive Style feat and B) the Recovering Maneuvers text on p. 40. It is, to be blunt, wishful thinking.

*sigh*

Take another look at page 38, first paragraph under READYING MANEUVERS, last sentence:

Only your readied maneuvers are available for immediate use.

And as you already quoted Adaptive Style:

You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action.

So if you take a full round action to change your readied maneuvers, and your readied maneuvers are avaiable for immediate use... Well, I am not quite sure how else you can read/understand that!?

Selective interpretation? I think not. Perhaps you have selective quoting of the rules?

Oh, and here is something else I am sure you will want to discount:

One of the questions from "Ask Wizards," on 08/28/2006.

Q: If you take the Adaptive Style feat (Tome of Battle, pg. 28), can you pick new maneuvers and/or ready all maneuvers by spending a full-round action in the middle of combat?

A: Yes, you can use Adaptive Style to pick new maneuvers in the middle of combat. Since you are picking new maneuvers, they would all be readied. This is a clear advantage for a class such as the swordsage, who normally has to spend a full round action to recover a single maneuver, and would be a great feat to pick up.

 

[Enforcer]

If you take the Monk rules and just scrape off the serial numbers, you should be fine. I'm playing a "monk" who's more of a Jason Bourne type secret agent in a play-by-post game for example. His amazing skills, including the weird ki stuff he'll get later, are a result of intense government-sponsored training, not religion.

Also, according to the Complete Scoundrel preview, there's a feat called Ascetic Stalker that allows you to stack your Monk and Ninja levels for Unarmed Strike and ki pool.

 

[Tarek]

*sigh*

Take another look at page 38, first paragraph under READYING MANEUVERS, last sentence:

And as you already quoted Adaptive Style:

So if you take a full round action to change your readied maneuvers, and your readied maneuvers are avaiable for immediate use... Well, I am not quite sure how else you can read/understand that!?

Oh, and here is something else I am sure you will want to discount:

And if you have no ready manuvers to switch out, or if you've used some of your maneuvers, is it your contention that using Adaptive Style will automatically refresh the spent maneuvers?

In other words, if a Swordsage has used all the maneuvers available to him in a long combat, do you believe it is the correct interpretation of the rules that he can use Adaptive Style to recover all his previously spent manuvers with a single full-round action?

Because that's the issue we're talking about here. We're not caring that the switched maneuvers are immediately ready, because that's not the issue.

There are times when "Ask Wizards" comes up with the wrong answer...

 

[Squire James]

On-topic stuff first...

I don't think it should be possible to out-monk a monk, so to speak, but I also don't think monks should have a monopoly on unarmed combat either. This is a hole in the D&D rules, in my opinion. To get an effective unarmed ninja with current rules, I think you need at least 1 level of monk to establish some unarmed combat ability. Perhaps you can convince the DM to allow Aestetic Rogue from Complete Advenurer (it allows monk and rogue levels to stack for the purposes of figuring unarmed damage and +2 DC on Stunning Fist when executing a sneak attack), and perhaps allow it to apply to ninjas and their Sudden Strike ability. You can even freely multi-class between monk and rogue/ninja if you're still lawful (and you probably should if you want to avoid an XP penalty).

Now for the secondary Book of Nine Swords discussion...

"Only your readied maneuvers are available for immediate use" is a constraint on availability and nothing more. Readied maneuvers are NOT necessarily available for immediate use, because for instance their slots might have been expended. Readying maneuvers and recovering them seem to be separate activities.

That being said, the combination of rules CAN be interpreted to assume that the act of choosing maneuvers for readying also causes a recovery cycle since that is usually what happens when new maneuvers are readied. However, this is not a certainty, and DM's are within their rights to rule differently (or ban the feat, if it comes to that).

 

[SorvahrSpahr]

sorry took so long, had a lot of stuff to do

these is interesting, never thought of those ways to raise my ammount of ki. that really could give me a good advantage.

I'm working on getting those books you guys mentioned.

I've been thinking about this. let's say I take a couple monk lvls before ninja, and after a ghost step I hit with a flurry of blows. i know tht if the ninja has 2 attacks per round, both attacks will be sudden strikes, so would this apply to the flurry too?