D&D 5E Understanding WOTC's class design guidelines and subclass acquisition

[Paul Farquhar]

The point about fly and pass without trace is that you don't leave physical tracks.

You don't need physical tracks to follow someone flying through a city. You just go up to the nearest person and say "which way did the flying man go?"

In 3.5, rangers had spells to get around this and urban rangers in particular had spellsthat aided in other forms of information gathering.

So what? 5e isn't 3.5.

The original ranger was expected to get divination items the same way a wizard get scrolls and the fighters got magic swords. It was a major class feature until AD&D 2e. Rangers were Aragorn clones and Aragorn had and mastered the palantir.

No, rangers got magic weapons too. Aragorn was a very high level ranger, and the Palantir was a unique artefact.

Well that the whole point.
There is no magical detective class. The only one in D&D history was the 3rd edition Unearthed Arcanca urban ranger.

But if you wanted to make a magic detective with 5e rules, you wouldn't start with a 5e ranger.

By the way rangers get locate object at level 5 and locate creature at level 11. Both are urban ranger spells.

Both of which have a range of 1000 feet, which makes them useless for locating something in anything bigger than a village.

The point is urban is not an offical option as a favored terrain. The available favored terrian list is missing:

That's because the theme of the ranger is wilderness survival, so Urban terrain makes no sense.

 

[Minigiant]

You don't need physical tracks to follow someone flying through a city. You just go up to the nearest person and say "which way did the flying man go?"

And what if the quarry flew away an hour ago? a day ago? days ago? You might not be tracking someone right ahead of you. The DMG allows for tracking day old tracks.

If someone was kidnapped, you might not get the quest for several hours.

So what? 5e isn't 3.5.

Urban rangers are from 3.5.

No, rangers got magic weapons too. Aragorn was a very high level ranger, and the Palantir was a unique artefact.

Yes. And ranger got items that allowed clairvoyance, clairvoyance, ESP, and telepathy. Plus cleric and MU spells. It's in the old original rules.

But if you wanted to make a magic detective with 5e rules, you wouldn't start with a 5e ranger.

I'm not saying you have to. Arcane archers were often rangers and wizards but it's a straight fighter in 5e.
I'm just saying that historically magic urban detectives, demon hunters, mage hunters, fairy knights, and some vampire slayers were rangers in D&D's past.

So it would be fair to gripe about any other them not being available as rangers in the present after a few years. If you don'tl ike urban rangers, fine. However the current game edition designer is complaining that it should be a thing.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

And what if the quarry flew away an hour ago? a day ago? days ago?

Then you do leg work, like regular detectives. You think the police only catch people by tracking them? Or do they use magic?

Urban rangers are from 3.5.

Yes. That's the point, 5e isn't 3.5, no reason to expect something from 3.5 work in 5e.

Yes. And ranger got items that allowed clairvoyance, clairvoyance, ESP, and telepathy. Plus cleric and MU spells. It's in the old original rules.

If I remember correctly, 1st edition rangers started to get 1st level spells at about level 8. And where expected to retire from adventuring and build a stronghold at level 9. I don't every recall rangers in 1st or 2nd edition making much use of spells outside of the occasional Cure Light Wounds. 5e is the spelliest version of the ranger I have come across.

 

[Minigiant]

Then you do leg work, like regular detectives. You think the police only catch people by tracking them? Or do they use magic?

Legwork in D&D 5th edition past 5th level requires magic. Police use computers and deductive science. That's magic it D&D.

If I remember correctly, 1st edition rangers started to get 1st level spells at about level 8. And where expected to retire from adventuring and build a stronghold at level 9. I don't every recall rangers in 1st or 2nd edition making much use of spells outside of the occasional Cure Light Wounds. 5e is the spelliest version of the ranger I have come across

But they had magic.

The problem is you are using personal experience to determine the baseline of play.

Most game designer attempt to continue past character concepts in new editions and sequels of games as long as story allows. Urban rangers was a past concept.

Another past concept was a ranged barbarian. Barbarians used to be able to have class feature strengthen their ranged attacks. Barbarians chucking javelins and handaxes was possible and matched flavor. Plus elves and halfings were allowed to be Barbarians.

But neither Rage nor Reckless attack works on ranged attacks. So it's not a "core class identity is much more distinct, much stronger, and impactful on the character" or a specialization option. It's missing. And a game designer is addressing these flaws.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Legwork in D&D 5th edition past 5th level requires magic. Police use computers and deductive science. That's magic it D&D.

No it doesn't. Detective work has never required computers, it has never required magic. You visit informers, you frequent known hangouts, you beat up thugs at the docks until one knows something, your round up the usual suspects, you send out gangs of street urchins or beat cops go door to door.

Most game designer attempt to continue past character concepts in new editions and sequels of games as long as story allows.

And most facts are made up on the spot.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I like these guidelines, they are good rules of thumb.

One example of a subclass that breaks rule #2 "without gaining abilities that you stop using" is the Battlerager from SCAG. Interpreted RAW, if you wear the spiked armor required to use most of the subclass abilities you cannot use the core class ability "Unarmored Defence".

Yeah the fact that you have to go find Spiked Armor once you hit level 3 to use subclass features puts it outside the guidelines. A surprising amount of Barbarian subclasses feel like they change the core source of your rage more than feeling like specializing in something.

 

[Undrave]

Personally I don't mind if a subclass grants proficiency in weapons and armors after level 1. That seems like the sort of thing you can train to pick up. It's not any more egregious than learning spell casting at level 3 really, and it's just an upgrade to whatever you've been using before.

 

[Minigiant]

No it doesn't. Detective work has never required computers, it has never required magic. You visit informers, you frequent known hangouts, you beat up thugs at the docks until one knows something, your round up the usual suspects, you send out gangs of street urchins or beat cops go door to door.

Again, it depends on the level of the game and the magic level of the setting. Challenge detective work at level 2 is different from level 6 or level 12. Nonmagical skill challenge for settings that aren't low magic or low power has been a problem in D&D since forever. That's has always been DM work and Homebrew to not get screwy.

But thats mostly outside of the thread's topic.

Yeah the fact that you have to go find Spiked Armor once you hit level 3 to use subclass features puts it outside the guidelines. A surprising amount of Barbarian subclasses feel like the change the core source of your rage more than feeling like specializing in something.

One might think that some class features were designed with simplicity sake in mind for the first player's handbook. however when you look at certain class features especially at low levels you become confused on why they are written in certain ways if you planned to have replacements available in the future.

One might think they were written this way just to keep the page count down in the first set of books.