D&D 5E Understanding WOTC's class design guidelines and subclass acquisition

[jmucchiello]

What I love about the need for magic to do tracking is the bard is even better than the arcane rogue or the ranger. He can locate object and eventually scry. And he has expertise. And if scrying doesn't work. You need a real magic user and it's no longer a pulp-style investigation.

 

[tetrasodium]

What I love about the need for magic to do tracking is the bard is even better than the arcane rogue or the ranger. He can locate object and eventually scry. And he has expertise. And if scrying doesn't work. You need a real magic user and it's no longer a pulp-style investigation.

I think that's a side effect of wotc making sorcerer spell list so close to wizard's & changing bard to be a full caster who still shares most of their spells with other massively overlapped casters (both arcane & divine). No longer having spells unlock at different levels on different lists ie remove curse, heroism, fire shield, etc didn't help matters with the sameness feeling either. Alice getting a spell & having Bob pick it up a couple levels (or more) later when she's excited about getting some other spell goes from feeling like bob just got the same toy she did to feeling like bob can maybe save her some spell slots.

 

[jmucchiello]

I agree about the spells. I wish they had done what PF2 did and just made "arcane", "divine", and "nature" spell lists. Or some such. There's no reason why some of the wizard spells are unavailable to sorcerers, for example.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Eh, I think it's made by the Ranger being a self-referential class that can't easily be explained without delving into mechanical differences. The Ranger as a class exists almost entirely because it existed in previous edition and not much else. The sort of reasons given to excuse the Warlord's exclusion from the 5e PHB could easily apply to a Ranger.

Nah, that's not true. Ranger is one of the classes that has a direct equivalent in the real world. Daniel Boone, Kit Carson, Davy Crockett, Lewis & Clarke, and so on are all rangers. They same could be said for most frontier bounty hunters, marshals or sheriffs. Pioneers, frontierspeople, woodspeople, mountaineers. Even people like Teddy Roosevelt might qualify.

They were, in their time, doing exactly what 1e rangers did. Bringing "civilization" to the "wilderness." We certainly don't glorify their interactions with the indigenous populations anymore, but they were self-sufficient, knowledgeable explorers doing what they thought was best to expand their culture into new territory or to protect it from skirmishing invaders, natural or human.

We even have careers today where the actual job title is ranger: Park Ranger. The job itself is even more in line with what the 5e ranger class description provides. Incidentally, that Wikipedia article provides an excellent history of the term "ranger".

 

[Fenris-77]

My favorite 5e Ranger build is an 'urban ranger' - Urban Bounty Hunter/Gloomstalker (yeah, Batman). It's a ton of fun. I also don't give a fig if the 'urban' part rubs anyone's rhubarb the wrong way. We all get to play what we like right? Why anyone should get up in arms because of someone else's character concept is beyond me.

 

[Undrave]

Nah, that's not true. Ranger is one of the classes that has a direct equivalent in the real world. Daniel Boone, Kit Carson, Davy Crockett, Lewis & Clarke, and so on are all rangers. They same could be said for most frontier bounty hunters, marshals or sheriffs. Pioneers, frontierspeople, woodspeople, mountaineers. Even people like Teddy Roosevelt might qualify.

They were, in their time, doing exactly what 1e rangers did. Bringing "civilization" to the "wilderness." We certainly don't glorify their interactions with the indigenous populations anymore, but they were self-sufficient, knowledgeable explorers doing what they thought was best to expand their culture into new territory or to protect it from skirmishing invaders, natural or human.

We even have careers today where the actual job title is ranger: Park Ranger. The job itself is even more in line with what the 5e ranger class description provides. Incidentally, that Wikipedia article provides an excellent history of the term "ranger".

Daniel Boone didn't have any druidic magic or anything...

But if you take the magic away suddenly it's all "Why isn't it just a Fighter with Wilderness skills?"

 

[Todd Roybark]

TBH I have no idea what an urban ranger is or why you would need one. "Surviving in an urban environment" is what most people do most of the time. I live in London, and survive fine without any special skills.

Now, Paul you are being modest. London street signage is notoriously poor. London is certainly not a grid based city, and I am quite sure you have very specialized knowledge regarding public transportation, which roads to drive down and when, which roads to bicycle down and when, and where to get a good take out curry.

It might just seem normal to you, but I bet you are actually getting Advantage on your Survival (London) checks!

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I've fought flying enemies at level 1. And fly is the same level as fireball. Pass without Trace used to be level 1.

Not every setting had low magic. And even those on the lower side has many ways to subvert tracking. The truth is that DM have to opt not to use resources and be friendly to make mundane tracking work in D&D.

Invisibility: does not block tracking by sound, smell or trace.
Pass without Trace: similar to invisibility, but also does not enable hiding in plain sight. Despite the name does nothing to hinder Survival skill tracking.
Fly: is highly conspicuous - people will notice a someone flying away.
Invisibility + Fly: Not possible in 5e becase of concentration.

Which leaves us with higher level magic.. Which, in Eberron is less common than in the Forgotten Realms. But you know what is easy to obtain in Eberron? - Amulets of non-detection.

Magic cancels out magic, which puts the detective back to doing it the old fashioned way - legwork. Which in 5e is mostly the Investigation skill and background contacts.

The Original ranger was expected to use crystal balls. And the 3rd edition ranger carried wands and scrolls. This all for wildernesses with few intelligent enemies.

No. "Can use" is not the same as "expected to use". I have never played a game in 40 years where crystal balls and wands where common enough that the ranger got them.

The question is whether that is a base feature for a ranger, a subclass of a ranger or a subclass of another class.

The issue here is that whether you believe it is a ranger, fighter, or rogue, you gain unwanted and nonsensical baggage to the concept. And if you think wizard, you are frontloading an already powerful class with skills. And it beaks the design team's own rules and guidelines.

Even given that some kind of "magical detective" class is needed for your setting, there is nothing in the 5e Ranger that would make it a suitable chassis for such a class. Everything the class gets, from Favoured Terrain to the spells on the spell list, is geared towards the wilderness. What you are looking for would have to be a full caster, since none of the useful spells are lower than 4th level, and 13th level characters are extremely rare in any setting, with good skills. Which would make it most similar to a bard.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Now, Paul you are being modest. London street signage is notoriously poor. London is certainly not a grid based city, and I am quite sure you have very specialized knowledge regarding public transportation, which roads to drive down and when, which roads to bicycle down and when, and where to get a good take out curry.

It might just seem normal to you, but I bet you are actually getting Advantage on your Survival (London) checks!

London is easy - no sane person drives in the city, You just jump on the train, look at the tube map, follow the coloured lines, and get off at your destination.

And you can find a curry anywhere, and none of them are good.

 

[Minigiant]

Invisibility: does not block tracking by sound, smell or trace.
Pass without Trace: similar to invisibility, but also does not enable hiding in plain sight. Despite the name does nothing to hinder Survival skill tracking.
Fly: is highly conspicuous - people will notice a someone flying away.
Invisibility + Fly: Not possible in 5e becase of concentration.

Which leaves us with higher level magic.. Which, in Eberron is less common than in the Forgotten Realms. But you know what is easy to obtain in Eberron? - Amulets of non-detection.

Magic cancels out magic, which puts the detective back to doing it the old fashioned way - legwork. Which in 5e is mostly the Investigation skill and background contacts.

The point about fly and pass without trace is that you don't leave physical tracks. In 3.5, rangers had spells to get around this and urban rangers in particular had spellsthat aided in other forms of information gathering.

No. "Can use" is not the same as "expected to use". I have never played a game in 40 years where crystal balls and wands where common enough that the ranger got them.

The original ranger was expected to get divination items the same way a wizard get scrolls and the fighters got magic swords. It was a major class feature until AD&D 2e. Rangers were Aragorn clones and Aragorn had and mastered the palantir.

Even given that some kind of "magical detective" class is needed for your setting, there is nothing in the 5e Ranger that would make it a suitable chassis for such a class. Everything the class gets, from Favoured Terrain to the spells on the spell list, is geared towards the wilderness. What you are looking for would have to be a full caster, since none of the useful spells are lower than 4th level, and 13th level characters are extremely rare in any setting, with good skills. Which would make it most similar to a bard.

Well that the whole point.
There is no magical detective class. The only one in D&D history was the 3rd edition Unearthed Arcanca urban ranger.

By the way rangers get locate object at level 5 and locate creature at level 11. Both are urban ranger spells. It's spells like knock, speak with dead, tongues, comprehend languages and the like that missing.

Both all of that is besides the point.

The point is urban is not an offical option as a favored terrain. The available favored terrian list is missing:

• Urban
• Underwater
• Caves
• Dungeons
• Underground (but not in the Underdark)
• Sky
• All Inner planes
• All Outer Planes
• Feywild
• Astral Plane

You can choose fiends as your favored enemy but not The Nine Hells as your favored terrain. This puts pressure on the DM to add something, create subclasses, and redesign a class in way the designers should have made official by now. It's been almost 5 years and you can't be realize a proper demon hunter at level 1 or any level because of the way the class was designed.