Underwater Flying [2006 Thread]

[Infiniti2000]

3. Hampered movement rules exists which are appropriate to use for how to modify flying to work underwater.

Let's look at this again. Ignoring the visibility issue, the table on hampered movement has three options: difficult terrain, obstacle, and impassable. So far, you've apparently assumed this to be difficult terrain, correct? Now, we all know that terrain refers to land, but I'll graciously allow that it could apply to water.

The things I want to draw to your attention is that it could also apply to the other two. If we choose impassable, it would be our view. In other words, it's impassable for that mode of movement, much like Flight through solid ground.

The last option, however, is much more intriguing. If water is an obstacle to flight (not unreasonable in concept), then we also have to look at the footnote: May require a skill check. That skill, surely, would be Swim?

 

[Infiniti2000]

I don't think land speed should have anything to do with it, but I agree that 1/4-speed is probably more accurate than 1/2-speed. You could very reasonably count it as "difficult terrain" plus "poor visibility" to make the speed be 1/4.

The Swim skill uses the land speed. Land speed is non-flying and I think more accurately describes a creature's locomotive ability through water as opposed to air (or some gas).

 

[Artoomis]

Let's look at this again. Ignoring the visibility issue, the table on hampered movement has three options: difficult terrain, obstacle, and impassable. So far, you've apparently assumed this to be difficult terrain, correct? Now, we all know that terrain refers to land, but I'll graciously allow that it could apply to water.

The things I want to draw to your attention is that it could also apply to the other two. If we choose impassable, it would be our view. In other words, it's impassable for that mode of movement, much like Flight through solid ground.

The last option, however, is much more intriguing. If water is an obstacle to flight (not unreasonable in concept), then we also have to look at the footnote: May require a skill check. That skill, surely, would be Swim?

That's an interetesting can of worms.

Obviously the chart was designed for land movement. What is really needed is a similar chart for swimming and flying.

Without that, requiring a Swim check (at what DC?? - and what happens if you fail??) is certainly justified.

This issue should not have been ignored in the rules - but you can't have everything. The way D&D is set up, there will never, ever be a truly 100% complete rule set.

 

[Artoomis]

The Swim skill uses the land speed. Land speed is non-flying and I think more accurately describes a creature's locomotive ability through water as opposed to air (or some gas).

First note that the Swim skill seems refers to surface swimming and may or may not truly be meant for underwater swimming; I would think so, though.

I think swimming underwater can be done with creatures with:

1. A swim speed
2 A land speed
3. A fly speed
4. A burrow speed

and maybe anything else.

The real limitations are:

1. Can you get under water? Creatures than cannot possibly submerge (like a Beholder) cannot swim underwater. This is common sense.

2. Can you stay bouyant at all? Creature that sink like a rock cannot swim. Iron golems come to mind. I think they go straight down and walk on the bottom. Common sense again.

3. Reduced speed. Creatures that can somehow reasonably maintain neutral bouyancy (perhaps only by swimming (or flying or whatever) in a downward direction) can all do some sort fo locometion underwater, regardless of how they normally move. The question then is under what rules, and is all movement translated to be swimming?

The answer to (3) is not found within the core rules. Using the FAQ and MotP it seems that one can fly underwater, but not as well as in the air. A burrowing creature might only be abel o move 5-feet per round (lots of judgement required there).

In the end, the real question is not whether one can fly underwater, but how one's normal means of movement is affected by being underwater, and the rules are woefully silent on that except for land movement (1/4 speed, uses Swim skill, etc.) and flying (FAQ and MotP only).

Bottom line: It is not prohibited to fly underwater, but what happens when you do is a DM judgement call.

I think 1/4 speed (using land movement as a precedent) and reduced manueverability by one grade (MotP) and stay flying, as opposed to swimming (FAQ and MotP) are fine rules. 1/2 speed is okay, too, but 1/4 speed is really more "realistic," whatever that means in a fantasy world.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The answer to (3) is not found within the core rules. Using the FAQ and MotP it seems that one can fly underwater, but not as well as in the air.

Just so you understand my perspective, I flatly reject the FAQ as a rules source so any references to it will be ignored by me. Also, as I've been discussing with Musrum, I reject the reference to the MotP as a rule. (Although, I would accept it as a source if it were somehow explained to be relevant.)

 

[Artoomis]

Just so you understand my perspective, I flatly reject the FAQ as a rules source so any references to it will be ignored by me. Also, as I've been discussing with Musrum, I reject the reference to the MotP as a rule.

Fine. But the core rules do not prohibit flying underwater any more than they prohibit flying in gases other than "air" or maybe even a vacuum - they just don't explain how to fly underwater. It's a hole in the core rules.

The FAQ and MotP help provide some guidance for how to fill that hole. Personsally, I think the best rule probably is:

1/4-move and lose one class of manueverability. Simple, easy to implement, not over-powerful in the least.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Fine. But the core rules do not prohibit flying underwater any more than they prohibit ...

Didn't you say that that wasn't your claim? If I can rephrase your attitude, you're not allowing it because it's not disallowed, you're allowing it because it's allowed. So, why do you keep saying that the core rules do not prohibit it? In your opinion, of course they don't prohibit underwater flying when the rules explicitly allow it!

 

[mvincent]

Just so you understand my perspective, I flatly reject the FAQ as a rules source so any references to it will be ignored by me.

Ah. I wish I had known that before. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Artoomis]

Didn't you say that that wasn't your claim? If I can rephrase your attitude, you're not allowing it because it's not disallowed, you're allowing it because it's allowed. So, why do you keep saying that the core rules do not prohibit it? In your opinion, of course they don't prohibit underwater flying when the rules explicitly allow it!

Okay, let me clarify - I can see how my position may be confusing.

1. The core rules (alone) do not prohibit flying underwater. They also do not explicitly allow it, but the rule on flying is permissive, not proscriptive. (If it was prosriptive, than flying could not be done in anything other than actual "air" and I've already demonstrated how that does not work.)

2. The core rules set a precedent for using other modes of movement when under water (land movement). This can be used as a RAW basis to allow flying underwater.

3. Flying underwater works in real life (and in fantasy as well).

Take 1 through 3 together and you've got pretty good support for the rules allowing flying underwater.

4. The big gap is that the rules do not specify HOW flying works underwater.

The Hampered Movement rules, FAQ and MotP can be used as guides to help fill that gap. None of them are necessarily a perfect choice.

The FAQ and MotP can also be used as supporting evidence that flying was indeed meant to be allowed underwater.

 

[lukelightning]

3. Flying underwater works in real life (and in fantasy as well).

For a select few things. Name one thing that can fly underwater and I can name five that can't.