Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Anubis]

Okay, I'll go and check out the revised Vegeta.

Incidently I worked out a formula for the Epic Wealth Tables (which actually reverse engineers, I think) last night.

Essentially you find where the table doubles over then note the number of intervening levels. Then the next time it doubles the number of intervening levels is +1.

However I would still agree that the Epic Wealth tables are far too generous.

I may return to my initial idea of Level x Level x Level x 100 GP...?

What about my idea? I think it works things out, well, perfectly. Check it out. Plain and simple, allowing the gains to continue increasing indefinitely will ALWAYS eventually unbalance the game. Be it Level 100, Level 1000, or Level 10000, it ALWAYS breaks down eventually.

The ONLY way to keep balance is with a flat rate.

 

[Anubis]

Hey UK! You should download ICQ some time. I would like to have a chat with you and discuss the ECL/CR issue at length in real time instead of waiting to talk back and forth on the message board.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kalanyr mate!

While this is true, it misses one important bit, Epic Monsters are by the mandate of the ELH about all that an Epic Adventurer should face and these creatures should be close to his level. Therefore since all creatures bypass these abilities they effectively don't exist.

I don't remember the ELH making such a claim and if it did it was in error.

12th-level+ characters (or any CR12+ monster) are still viable opponents for starting epic level characters.

Not to mention even lower CR opponents en masse.

I don't think Epic Monsters should be a common encounter, even at epic or divine levels of play. As I have mentioned in the past the focus of such play relies less and less upon the merely physical and more and more upon the political.

I think the analogy that deities are akin to nuclear weapons holds true.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi, Upper_Krust!

Hello mate!

I have trouble visualizing how that would work... Now I'm here, after a free action I'm on the moon?

I thought it was pretty straightforward...

(Would you say that the power of in ODA is about the same as the power of my planar ruler template, if you looked at it?)

Of course I looked at it, but I have a very poor short term memory for even the stuff I am working on; so the chances of me remembering such a thing is slim to none...as in this case.

Do you still have the link?

Maybe True? I'll look through my Oxford Concise Dictionary sometime.

Absolute? (arg, I didn't want to spekulate...)

Somantics are irrelevant...it does 'anything'.

With other words, you become the DM.

Sort of.

TDA - Time lord Divine Ability?

Nope. Time Lords are not powerful enough to gain them!

I think making wealth by level increase beyond level 40 arithmetic rather than geometric is the way to go. I'd suggest a rounder figure like 300,000 gp/level, but that's just me. Also I agree that level 41+ Epic NPCs should have at least 1/2 PC wealth, they should probably all be unique beings themselves, although I suppose you could make up the Thousand Sun Guards of Ormazd who are all 50th level NPC Fighters if you wanted...
In that sort of case a lower NPC wealth by level would be reasonable.

I was thinking something along those lines. Perhaps 1.3 million GP at 21st and then 500,000 GP each subsequent level.

To be honest I am really fed up with the whole wealth issue.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

What about my idea? I think it works things out, well, perfectly. Check it out. Plain and simple, allowing the gains to continue increasing indefinitely will ALWAYS eventually unbalance the game. Be it Level 100, Level 1000, or Level 10000, it ALWAYS breaks down eventually.

The ONLY way to keep balance is with a flat rate.

The whole wealth issue is something I am just going to leave for a week or two (like I did with the Challenge Rating Issue) - the solution will present itself eventually.

Hey UK! You should download ICQ some time.

I have ICQ. I just never use it (I use MSN Messenger via my hotmail account).

I remember liking the typewriter noise on ICQ.

I would like to have a chat with you and discuss the ECL/CR issue at length in real time instead of waiting to talk back and forth on the message board.

You mean our posting so far on the matter hasn't been extensive enough!?

 

[Anubis]

You mean our posting so far on the matter hasn't been extensive enough!?

That's not what I meant. What I meant is that it may be more efficient, work-wise. Instead of having to wait hours or days to hear replies back and forth, we can just address things right off. That way, the work is done sooner, and people can start to finally use a system that works.

 

[Anubis]

There's a slight problem with both of our ECL systems . . . At VERY low levels, it doesn't work.

Take the Medium-Size Skeleton, not even CR 1. By my system, the thing comes out as CR 2, and by your system, the thing comes out as CR 1. Both of these numbers are far too high.

I think perhaps we should limit out systems to Celestials, Demons, Devils, Dragons, and Epic monsters . . . Most of the others, by the core rules, are already pretty accurate anyway, so there is no need for much adjustment.

What do you think about that, UK? Skeletons, Zombies, most Vermin, even Elves and Dwarves come out overrated with our systems.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

That's not what I meant. What I meant is that it may be more efficient, work-wise. Instead of having to wait hours or days to hear replies back and forth, we can just address things right off. That way, the work is done sooner, and people can start to finally use a system that works.

Well I already think I have solved the CR 'problem'. I'll post my findings soon enough.

There's a slight problem with both of our ECL systems . . . At VERY low levels, it doesn't work.

Okay, what is it this time?

Take the Medium-Size Skeleton, not even CR 1. By my system, the thing comes out as CR 2, and by your system, the thing comes out as CR 1. Both of these numbers are far too high.

(Medium Sized) Skeletons and Zombies are at least as tough as a CR1 character/monster. Of course such a system is going to be polarised at 1HD/1st-level but thats simply the way it is!

I think perhaps we should limit out systems to Celestials, Demons, Devils, Dragons, and Epic monsters . . . Most of the others, by the core rules, are already pretty accurate anyway, so there is no need for much adjustment.

Nonsense. Its all or nothing!

What do you think about that, UK? Skeletons, Zombies, most Vermin, even Elves and Dwarves come out overrated with our systems.

No they're not.

 

[Anubis]

Well I already think I have solved the CR 'problem'. I'll post my findings soon enough.

I am very interested in seeing what your work has produced. Afeter some studying, though, I have noticed that a MAJORITY of the CRs in the MM are accurate. Only Celestials, Demons, Devils, Dragons, Titans, and Tarrasque are grossly incorrect.

Okay, what is it this time?

This is serious!

(Medium Sized) Skeletons and Zombies are at least as tough as a CR1 character/monster. Of course such a system is going to be polarised at 1HD/1st-level but thats simply the way it is!

You're nuts. I've use skeletons plenty, and a medium-size skeleton isn't a challenge for a Level 1 party AT ALL. In fact, skeletons usually die in a single hit without a problem, using NONE of the party's resources. How is a medium-size skeleton CR 1?

Same with zombies, except they take two hits before going down. Still no resources are used.

Nonsense. Its all or nothing!

I disagree. It has slowly become obvious that there is NO system that works at low AND high levels. A system that works at low levels breaks down at high levels, and a system that works right at high levels breaks down at low levels.

Would you like to test the skeleton theory? I can GUARANTEE that a Level 1 party could beat one without taking a scratch 99% of the time.

No they're not.

Yep, they all come out with a higher ECL than they should get. Dwarves and Elves both end up as ECL +1 when they should be ECL 0, meaning no ECL. Skeletons and Zombies have a lot of immunities that break their ECL.

 

[poilbrun]

My players usually use slashing or piercing weapons, so skeletons are usually a good encounter against them... And I think that's the problem with a system to calculate ECL... A red dragon ECL is different if the wizard has fireballs prepared or if he has ice storms prepared... I don't think a unified system could possibly solve this.