Vampiric Touch, Spellstoring, and thrown weapon...

[Storminator]

Does it work?

If you put Vampiric Touch into a Spellstoring dagger, then throw it, do you gain the hp the target loses? Does the target even lose the hp due to VT?

PS

 

[drnuncheon]

Since you choose to use the spell or not upon striking the person, I'd say that you would not be able to trigger the Vampiric Touch if you used the dagger as a thrown weapon.

 

[Storminator]

Since you choose to use the spell or not upon striking the person, I'd say that you would not be able to trigger the Vampiric Touch if you used the dagger as a thrown weapon.

Are you saying that spellstoring cannot be used at all with a thrown weapon?

PS

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

I'd have to honestly say that it was indeed debatable.

Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.)

If you note, it's the weapon that casts the spell - which it does as a free action, so that indicates a 'yes' to your question.

However, it's the 'wielder' that chooses to cast the spell, which brings us to the question of whether or not you are wielding a weapon that is thrown.

wield ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wld)
tr.v. wield·ed, wield·ing, wields

1. To handle (a weapon or tool, for example) with skill and ease.
2. To exercise (authority or influence, for example) effectively. See Synonyms at handle.

Would seem to say that technically, no you do not wield a thrown weapon.

However, in multiple accounts throughout history, warriors armed with ranged weapons are said to have 'wielded' them.


The point is debatable. By the strictest of intrepretation, the answer must be 'no'.

In the spirit of fun gaming (and because of the historical examples) - I'd have to say 'yes' to a player in my games doing this.


That said, what about projectile weaponry like a bow or xbow or dart or sling? Can these effectively use spell storing? The SRD seems to indicate not - both by tables and by definition of spell storing, but it isn't perfectly clear on the issue either

 

[Spatzimaus]

I'd say it wouldn't work. First, because you're not wielding the weapon after you throw it. More importantly, the spell explicitly states it requires a melee touch attack; throwing a dagger is neither melee nor touch.

If it WERE possible to put the spell in the dagger, the dagger would gain the temporary HP anyway, as the Spell Storing description says "...the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature..." The weapon is the caster, so the weapon would gain the HP.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Would seem to say that technically, no you do not wield a thrown weapon.

[sarcasm]Boy that's a relief. I'm glad that a halfling can throw gargantuan hammers around without penalty.[/sarcasm]

[sarcasm explanation D&D brings in penalties for different sizes of weapon wielder to intended weapon wielder based upon size. A weapon wielder too many size categories off cannot use a weapon at all.[/explanation]

D&D uses "wielding" and "using" independently with respect to weapons. You can put Vampiric Touch in a thrown dagger and use it normally. Furthermore, you can even put Vampiric Touch in a Crossbow Bolt, as Spellstoring is not confined to melee weapons the way that the Throwing enhancement is.

-Frank

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

[sarcasm explanation D&D brings in penalties for different sizes of weapon wielder to intended weapon wielder based upon size. A weapon wielder too many size categories off cannot use a weapon at all.[/explanation]

D&D uses "wielding" and "using" independently with respect to weapons. You can put Vampiric Touch in a thrown dagger and use it normally. Furthermore, you can even put Vampiric Touch in a Crossbow Bolt, as Spellstoring is not confined to melee weapons the way that the Throwing enhancement is.

-Frank

Where did 'size' come into this question from? I don't see a relevance there, though perhaps I'm just a little dense.

Also, where is the relevance in 'wielding' and 'using' being used independently when considering only the 'spell storing' spell definition? Or are you referring to 'using' a xbow as opposed to 'wielding' it? I'm confused - but that's normal for a literalist like me

Also, where do you find that spellstoring is not restricted solely to melee weapons? I could find no clear indication either way, and only an indirect implication that it -was- restricted to melee weapons.

I'd say it wouldn't work. First, because you're not wielding the weapon after you throw it. More importantly, the spell explicitly states it requires a melee touch attack; throwing a dagger is neither melee nor touch.

If it WERE possible to put the spell in the dagger, the dagger would gain the temporary HP anyway, as the Spell Storing description says "...the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature..." The weapon is the caster, so the weapon would gain the HP.

1) The spell does NOT state that - refer to the quote from the SRD above.

2) the thrown dagger is most certainly a touch, a ranged touch, not melee. Refer to the thread that discussed the nature of a monk making a touch attack, buried therein is a discussion about the nature of making a ranged touch attack as a normal attack.

3) if you choose to interpret the rules as saying the weapon being the caster means the weapon gains any and all benefit from the spell, you are blocking a number of really useful spells from being used with it in melee weapons as well as setting a precedent by which it could be argued that other magic items are casting only for themselves as well.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Where did 'size' come into this question from? I don't see a relevance there, though perhaps I'm just a little dense.

The point is that the restrictions on how large a weapon you can use are based on the size of the weapon vs. the "wielder" of the weapon. So if you didn't "wield" a thrown weapon there would be no limit to how large a weapon you could throw. Thus, a halfling could throw a Titan's warhammer.

Fortunately, you do "wield" a thrown weapon, which means that halflings can't throw Titan hammers - and that a spellstoring dagger works fine.

Also, where do you find that spellstoring is not restricted solely to melee weapons?

The same place that I find that Flaming Burst is not limited to Longswords. There is a precise list of what restrictions each weapon enhancement has. Those which can only be applied to melee weapons are clearly labeled as such. Those which can be applied to only ranged weapons are also clearly labeled as such. Those which can be applied to ranged or melee weapons are not labeled at all - as this is considered the "normal" state for a weapon enhancement quality.

As to Vampiric Touch in weapons: yes it works. It's even used explicitly in a couple of packaged adventures, as it is a really good combo.

-Frank

 

[Caliban]

I'd say probably not. You wield the thrown weapon up until the point it leaves your hand, once it's been thrown you are no longer wielding it, and cannot activate the ability.

There is no loophole that allows throwing outsized weapons, and such items being in a pre-packaged adventure proves exactly nothing. They get rules stuff wrong all the time.

 

[Storminator]

I think it's pretty clear that VT works in a spellstoring weapon, let's not discuss that issue.

I also couldn't find anything that said you couldn't put spellstoring in a thrown weapon. As the wielder, I can decide I want the dagger to cast the spell before I throw it, frex, and then it discharges when it hits. Fine so far.

There's nothing in the VT spell says you must be touching the target to gain the temp hp either (ie, outlawing the Reach Spell feat, etc), so it likely works as well.

Just wondering if there was anything I missed.

PS