Vital spot OR Can a halfling sneak attack a human?

I haven't heard of that rule. There *is* a blurb in the PHB where it states that the rogue must be able to reach a vital area in order to sneak attack it but it didn't give any specifics (left it up to the DM's discretion - which I think it should be as there are too many factors to take into account. In the case of the troll and the halfling, I can perceive of a circumstance where the troll reaches down to bite the halfling and the halfling pokes it in the eye (if the groin isn't considered vital)).

Edit: From the SRD -
A rogue can only sneak attack a living creature with a discernible anatomy. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach a vital spot. The rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

The last part is probably where this DM is getting this ruling, and it is a judgement call. Perhaps another book - like Song and Silence clarified this with a general rule?

IceBear
 
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The rule is in the player's hand book (sneak attack description, I believe) but it refers to humans and hill giants, not trolls. (Oddly hill giants are only size large though, IIRC).
 

Your DM really has some issues...

You ought to point out to him that:

1. The PHB glossary defines Critical Hits as strikes against vital spots, so unless he denies everyone critical hits against creatures larger than they are, he also ought to leave Sneak Attacks alone.
2. It's an abstract system, trying to be "rational" about rogues and taking away their abilities because of "real world" issues while the mage is standing next to them casting Magic Missile is retarded.
3. According to the rules, you have enough precision to Sneak Attack from 30 feet away, so the argument that you can't do it with the tip of your sword to something 8 or 9 feet from the ground is a load of crap.
4. Large arteries and tendons in the groin, kidneys, and the lower spine are most certainly vital spots, if he doesn't agree, suggest he stand with his legs apart so you can test his theory. Make sure to wear steel-toed boots. ;)
 

I believe the reach rule is 1- vague and thus 2- stupid. If you can hit them anywhere, there are vital spots, save on creatures without vital spots. I suppose the rule makes sense for those rare DM-created creatures who have only vital spots on top of their heads or somesuch.

I really don't think this rule is applicable to 95% of normal rogues vs other normal creatures. A good rule of thumb: anytime a creature can be critted, they can be sneak attacked, unless they have Uncanny dodge or concealment.

Greg
 

Zhure said:
I believe the reach rule is 1- vague and thus 2- stupid. If you can hit them anywhere, there are vital spots, save on creatures without vital spots. I suppose the rule makes sense for those rare DM-created creatures who have only vital spots on top of their heads or somesuch.

I really don't think this rule is applicable to 95% of normal rogues vs other normal creatures. A good rule of thumb: anytime a creature can be critted, they can be sneak attacked, unless they have Uncanny dodge or concealment.

Greg

Agreed. I know it would have to be an unusal circumstance before I would not allow a rogue a sneak attack against a monster that can be sneak attacked.

That's why I was wondering if they clarified this rule somewhere else (the two sizes larger thing came up from a couple of different people so it must be from somewhere).

IceBear
 

All I can say is what others have - you need to come up with a consensus for your group.

As a way of help, I offer this interpretation of the SRD passage:

A rogue can only sneak attack a living creature with a discernible anatomy.
This obviously refers to creatures such as slimes, oozes, constructs, etc. Even beholders have a discernable anatomy, discernable specifically meaning "one part is able to be determined as different from another part." As long as the creatures has organs, flesh, and a circulatory system that still perform functions, it can be considered as "discernable."

Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also not vulnerable to sneak attacks.
This clause makes the first even clearer, eliminating even undead and animate objects.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach a vital spot.
Now the tricky part. The bodies of vertebrates are RIFE with vital spots - most martial arts and military forces will tell you this. The ability to reach a vital in my opinion refers more to creatures that are completely beyond reach with your weapon than creatures who are a few feet taller. Otherwise, as an earlier poster said, Dragons and all huge or colossal creatures are completely immune to critical hits and sneak attacks, because vitals are impossible to reach under most circumstances.
The rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.
Concealment applies directly to being able to SEE the vitals, but striking the limbs in my opinion refers to ATTACKING APPENDAGES, in the case of reach and threat range, not that no limbs have vitals, which is not valid to say. See my above comment on the abundance of vitals in a body.

Finally, ask him to examine if he thinks vitals should be unreachable by a halfling. The example of a human attacking a hill giant unless someone corrects me I don't think comes from 3rd edition, I think it comes from 2nd:
...Second, the thief cannot use it on every creature. The victim must be generally humanoid. Part of the skill comes from knowing just where to strike. A thief could backstab an ogre, but he wouldn't be able to do the same to a beholder. The victim must also have a definable back (which leaves out most slimes, jellies, oozes, and the like). Finally, the thief has to be able to reach a significant target area. To backstab a giant, the thief would have to be standing on a ledge or window balcony. Backstabbing him in the ankle just isn't going to be as effective.
- player's handbook, 2nd edition

If a halfling were only able to sneak attack size small or smaller creatures, this makes the most important combat ability of the primary class of halflings unusable, which does not make common sense to me.
 
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Henry said:
Now the tricky part. The bodies of vertebrates are RIFE with vital spots - most martial arts and military forces will tell you this.

Good point. There are vital points on the foot that'll make a grown man weep. Many UTF fights end with ankle breaks or ankle submissions.

Femural arteries, achilles tendon, lots of them in the lower body.

Greg
 

Henry said:
Concealment applies directly to being able to SEE the vitals, but striking the limbs in my opinion refers to ATTACKING APPENDAGES, in the case of reach and threat range, not that no limbs have vitals, which is not valid to say. See my above comment on the abundance of vitals in a body.

That's what I think that passage means too.

IceBear
 

(Sigh.) This reminds me so much of the NFL instant replay rule. It's a judgment call, so it's not reviewable. Interpretation of the phrase 'unreachable vitals' is left to the DM. So, rules-wise, we're all done here.

That said, I've seen replays of pass-interference calls that showed the defender clearly didn't even touch the receiver. The coach can't ask for a review of the play, because it's officially a judgment call on the part of the referee whether there was enough contact to violate the interference rule. That doesn't change the fact that the referee, like your DM, is an idiot.
 

Yes, the way sneak attack works does not (to me) mean that the attacker must strike one of those spots that could result in instant death. They simply carefully pick a target that does substantially more damage than others- on top of which, it is damage to HP, not necessarily increased physical damage. So, a short individual against a tall individual can smash a patella, slice an Achilles’ tendon- whatever works for flavor. They can certainly find a way to impact on HP with a skilled attack. The extra HP damage can simply be in reduced mobility, rather than necessarily a hug gaping wound.
This really seems like an unkind ruling, although DMs prerogative and all that, I suppose.
 

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