[VtR] [OOC] Born into Darkness

[Graf]

You're the ST, and you get final say, but that doesn't mean you can twist my words around to make me look like an a$$. I'm not gonna put up with S___ like that.

I'm out.

I suppose its probably too late to say this but it was never my intent to "twist your words around" or "make you look like an <whatever>".

So, in the unlikely event that you look at this thread then I've enjoyed playing with you so far, you encouraged me to think about the game in ways I wouldn't have and I appreciate that and apoloigse for having offended you and (apparently) wasted your time.

 

[industrygothica]

So I guess I'm a bit confused too, then. At first I thought LB wanted us to kill our sires. Then, with the

Now, ah also unndastand you ain't all equipped tah go out an' find an' kill yah siahs. Ah assure you that ah and mah sheriff, he gestures to Blackcoat, am gonna be quite diligent on that f______ front.

statement, I took it to mean that maybe it is only our job to locate our sires, and then let LB and Blackcoat take care of the messy stuff.

Maybe I'm wrong on both accounts?

In any case, I like this game; I'd like to continue playing it.


-IG

 

[Graf]

In any case, I like this game; I'd like to continue playing it.
-IG

Very glad to hear that.

 

[Graf]

So I guess I'm a bit confused too, then. At first I thought LB wanted us to kill our sires. Then, with the statement, I took it to mean that maybe it is only our job to locate our sires, and then let LB and Blackcoat take care of the messy stuff.

Maybe I'm wrong on both accounts?

You aren't wrong. LB said this before Diego and Biggs started saying things like

"I'd like to be there when you kill Vanderchild, if that is possible."
"Dude! we're the ones who are going to kill Vanderchild, along with the others who sired us. Every one. And i'm looking forward to it."

I mean, if you were LB what would you do?
He wants their sire's dead, he was expecting to have to do it himself, but if he has a bunch of suicidal neonates leaping over each other to do it instead of him is gonna say No?

Of course not.

He'll say. "That's right boys! That's the deal! You go get 'em!"

Does that make sense? I mean... nobody made Biggs (or Warshrike) post that.
I didn't encourage that. (at all!) I had to have a good think when he started up with the whole "I'll do it myself stuff!".

But I tried to roll with it and adapt the game to match the choices that PCs make. It makes sense that neonates would make mistakes/misjudgments.

[sblock=Much longer explanation, which includes a bunch of IC stuff to give more background, etc]Urg. I really, massively prefer to do things IC. But since things are sensitive now then I suppose I'll just roll with it and explain OOC.

It'd be understandable as it's a bit vague basically here's the thing.

LB isn't a proxy for the adventure... he's a guy. The sort of old unpleasant vampire that I think would be a prince of a city (instead of the sorts of characters that WoD usually deploys but I suppose that's another post).

What does he want?
He wants to be in charge, with his childer and have free reign. I.e. the status quo.

So he gets into power (the players still don't know how really) and then once he's there he systematically outlaws all the sorts of things that would be a threat to him (or even just make his nights unpleasant)
a) new vampires
b) new ghouls
c) new blood bonds
he's also strongly discouraged people having guns and/or weaponry. He doesn't use weaponry himself, he requires that ghouls aren't armed (you notice that the "security" force in the elevator wasn't armed, not even a set of brass knuckles)
[sblock=Why didn't you mention guns, etc earlier?]Honestly because I knew that people wanted to have equipment. If they'd been doing a good job they could probably have convinced LB to let them carry around some stuff for "emergencies" but if people pushed he'd have said "no guns no swords no nothing" just like for everyone else.

This is one of the reasons he wasn't equipping the characters, incidentally. He doesn't keep room someplace filled with lots of guns and explosives because he doesn't use them and he doesn't want other people to use him.
He doesn't own any of that.

Just because he's a prince (and princes in White Wolf books always have squads of ghouls armed with heavy weaponry) doesn't necessarily mean he would.
If you're have claws, would you really go around equiping people with swords? Or would you just make them use knives or their fists?
If you can shrug off light weapons fire would you discourage or encourage people to have guns? Discourage right?
I just doesn't make much sense for him to be giving people guns, swords, blah blah blah.
A guy with just his hands isn't going to take on LB. A guy with a flame thrower might be tempted to take a shot.

I confess to simulationist tendencies.[/sblock]


So he's set up this restrictive regime and it's sort of worked. But, of course, a lot of kindred are upset (to one degree or another) with the rules.
They're restrictive, they're different from other cities, they don't involve sharing power with people, it forces most kindred to get out and hunt more, to deal with mortals more, etc etc.

So there's pressure, especially from other elders and ancilla to try to get him to roll back the restrictions. It's nicer to be on the top of the totem pole if you have a bunch of people underneath you.

Of course they don't necessarily want to say "I want to embrace but only me and maybe my allies" so they try to get other kindred involved saying that LB's destroying the fabric of kindred society/power-mad/whatever.

So, anyway, suddenly he has a bunch of new vampires.

His inclination is to kill them, but, of course that plays into the hands of people who say that he's a power-mad autocrat.
So he has to thread a bit of a needle; he has to come down hard, and punish people but look like he's being fair.

Now his original deal with Cole was: You figure out this mystery for me and I'll deal with it.

If this were an adventure it would read

If the Cole discovers the mystery surrounding his appearance he will earn LB's trust and the right to live in the city. If he does really well it's possible that ... blah blah blah

So he's about to offer basically the same goal to the group.

LB: So I'm going to offer you this deal you...
Biggs: (interrupting) I'll kill my sire for you!
Diego: (interrupting) Me too!

Now: If this were DnD, and LB was an LG Duke or something then he'd say "HO HO HO, that won't be necessary my young friends. Maybe when you've become more experienced..."

But this is vampire. Not DnD.

Now what is LB gonna do?
He'll take full advantage of the PCs. Why not?

If you're playing a game, and you make a choice, especially if it's an unsolicited choice (i.e. something you just came up with yourself) then I'm obliged to respect that choice.

As neonate vampires you'll make bad decisions occasionally.

If Biggs, or anybody, decides later that they don't want the deal then that's perfectly OK. But it's gotta be dealt with IC. You can figure out a way to renegotiate, or play dumb, or whatever.

But you can't really make some OOC reason, (I.e. my sire is in Lupine terrotorry, so I guess the deal is off) and then use some sort of convoluted specious arguement to information launder it into the game and assert that it's a great IC reason for you to break your deal with LB.

Or you can, but LB will probably just put you into torpor.
Because the info isn't IC info, it's OOC info and (incidentally) it's wrong.

Diego's recent scene mentioned a "Lupine War". The PCs haven't dug yet, but there was a war, the vampires won and kindred can go anywhere in the city that they want.
They don't routinely go into lupine territory for the same reason that Nazi's didn't go into the Warsaw Ghetto as part of their day to day life. (or whatever, sorry it's a bad analogy but I can't think of a better one really, right now).[/sblock]

 

[Graf]

OOC: I see the begining of Cole's path really requiring only Archer. The others will just be left hanging in the background. If there is nothing left to do, then we can begin with his tonight. But it will definately require more than one half night to accomplish.

Generally speaking I would say that there are multiple routes to dealing with each character's background. Some, admittedly, are more obscure than others.

The answer to this question really depends on what Cole's going to do. If he wants to approach the company with his name then Archer is useful.

At midnight when the offices are closed?
Honestly Diego would probably also be useful.

Of course Archer's info is probably going to be invaluable.

But there are other threads that Cole can pick up as well.

 

[Graf]

Another way to put it would be that there are plenty of reasons for the PCs to do or not do something.
If you don't want to follow Blackcoat's implied instructions then you don't have to. Festy, for instance, is suggesting the party follow another lead.

You can't, though, use OOC info as an IC reason.
Especially if it's a screen for the fact that the player is upset that NPCs aren't supplying them with gear.
Or you can but it won't really be an effective excuse.

It would be fine if Biggs was pissed that his swords were broken/not replaced/whatever and not going to do anything that seemed like it would please LB. That would be an IC reason.
But Biggs wants-swords-before-he-fights-lupines-he-knows-nothing-about?
No.
Not a reason.

Bah. This is sitting on my brain like a roach.

 

[Graf]

Imma have to start keeping a list of ppl to kill

OOC a list is fine.
IC a list is OK, but if he actually makes a list of people to kill and starts killing them?

You'd risk losing humanity.

 

[OnlytheStrong]

I've played VtR enough to know (and Diego would know just from what ppl have said so far) that him kiling his sire is not going to happen. Which is why he wanted to be there. Just to watch. I admit I was confused when Warstrike said we were going to kill them, but I just went with it. I guess I shoulda had Diego say something............

 

[industrygothica]

I've played VtR enough to know (and Diego would know just from what ppl have said so far) that him kiling his sire is not going to happen. Which is why he wanted to be there. Just to watch. I admit I was confused when Warstrike said we were going to kill them, but I just went with it. I guess I shoulda had Diego say something............

Well, this is my first ever Vampire game, but vampire lore itself suggests that any fledgling has almost zero chance of killing his sire--at least not in a fair fight. Maybe surprising them just before dawn by hacking them up with sickles and burning what's left will work sometimes, but it seems like that one's been used somewhere before.

Regardless, Beth loves Constance for whatever reason. She's not going to kill her. I think you'd be hard pressed to get her to try and find her for that reason as well, but I don't know. Honestly, I think there might be more afoot than that, and hopefully she'll get a chance to explore that opinion soon enough.

 

[Graf]

I've played VtR enough to know (and Diego would know just from what ppl have said so far) that him kiling his sire is not going to happen. Which is why he wanted to be there. Just to watch. I admit I was confused when Warstrike said we were going to kill them, but I just went with it. I guess I shoulda had Diego say something............

You should do what Diego would do.
I mean... I didn't say to War... "You're saying something you shouldn't say" or "you're promising something that's impossible".
It was a cool scene, I thought.

Again, though, if you swear that you're gonna kill your sire with your own hands, when the prince is talking about whether or not the prince is going to punish you for your creation or not....
It's not just a one liner.

You've spoken to an NPC. In this case an NPC in a position of power with their own agenda.

edit: At the same time, saying that doesn't mean that the rest of the game is just the PCs trapped in a locked room and they have to kill their sire in personal combat before they can leave.
I took the conversation OOC because there were many ways to wriggle out of getting into trouble for ducking Blackcoat's instructions, but that (really the only way) you couldn't do it was using some sort of OOC excuse.
Or at least it would have lead to getting into boring, story stopping trouble.

I should probably just have left the whole thing alone.

I've played VtR enough to know (and Diego would know just from what ppl have said so far) that him kiling his sire is not going to happen.

Well, this is my first ever Vampire game, but vampire lore itself suggests that any fledgling has almost zero chance of killing his sire--at least not in a fair fight. Maybe surprising them just before dawn by hacking them up with sickles and burning what's left will work sometimes, but it seems like that one's been used somewhere before.

[sblock=Tangent about combat and power]
This is purely a random statement, but the most powerful thing in a roleplaying game is an action.

In nWoD every character gets one action a round. And there is no more "soaking" (i.e. if you damage someone, then you damage them -- there are almost no cases where a success on an attack role can be negated by the foe).

So, if the group gets into combat with a single opponent that person will go once to the group's five actions. (and can spend 5 blood points a turn, 5 willpower points a turn, etc).
And, if you think about the group as an organ, it doesn't really degrade in potency (i.e. lose actions) until a character drops or stops fighting (i.e. it's taken minimum 7 health levels ....)

If you apply the math: assume that everyone in the group has combat pool of 5 or so. The foe has a defense of 3 (which removes six dice). That's 19 dice. The mean number of successes is around 7 (with 10-again). Average health for a normal character? 7 health levels. That's going to add up fast, even if you're fighting someone who can spend multiple blood points a round.
Of course if they have celerity 2 then you're rolling 3 chance dice and 6 regular dice.
But some members of the group would probably get a lot more dice (Cole with a shotgun is in the 9-10 range, so is Biggs with melee).
It's situational.

I'm not saying that you *should* kill your sires, or that you *shouldn't* or "it'd be easy" or that it's even possible (or isn't possible) for the group to actually kill all their sires this in this case (i.e. for Archer, Beth, Biggs, Cole and Diego to kill Celeste, Constance, and whoever else) or anything like that.
I'm just speaking generally.

And, generally speaking I think it's true that, depending on die rolls, a group of five neonates could take on a reasonably powerful kindred and destroy them.

Again this is OOC.
IC you're characters may very well believe that it's totally impossible to kill a powerful vampire.The only vampires people have faced in combat (Blackcoat really) is specifically designed to be a combat monster. Her melee die pool is very large, she has multiple dots in a Fighting Style and has plowed a big chunk of her xp into combat disciplines. And she's very good at one-on-one.

Could the PCs as a group take her?
Normally I'd say no way. But if she was low on blood, and the fight started with someone throwing a grenade at her?
The scope of possible results are large. Some of them involve the PCs "winning" i.e. driving her off. A smaller set involve the possibility of the group "winning outright" and driving her into torpor (celerity eats blood points, if she falls into a hunger frenzy she'll start trying to drink blood instead of defending herself, trying to grapple and drink in a fight with multiple supernaturals is very inefficient, you can only drink one point a round, etc).

So if the question is "do the PCs, as a group, have -no- chance of killing a powerful vampire?"
The answer is: No. There is some chance. Even without talking about sunlight, or fire or what have you.

As an OOC statement I do prefer this.
The PCs are relevant.
There are not many situations where a group of vampire PCs could just be ignored by someone nearby them because they weren't a threat.

(There are a few throbbing exceptions of course -- but this tangent is long enough already).​

[/sblock]

Regardless, Beth loves Constance for whatever reason. She's not going to kill her. I think you'd be hard pressed to get her to try and find her for that reason as well, but I don't know. Honestly, I think there might be more afoot than that, and hopefully she'll get a chance to explore that opinion soon enough.

Noted.
As the game was presented originally as a "investigative/role playing scenario" you could reasonably expect it would not solely involve a series of linear search and destroy missions.

I do want characters (and players) to feel like their pushing their respective stories forward. Right now the game emphasis is a bit more on getting people into the world, etc etc.

But, I also feel like I owe the group a degree of flexibility.
If Biggs (or whoever) announces that he wants to kill their sires and everyone goes along then that has the potential to change the game.
It's an RPG after all.
Game reality has to flex to accommodate the actions the players have the PC's take.