[VtR] [OOC] Born into Darkness

[Graf]

PC control of frenzy

Going forward I think we'll allow players the option to control their characters in frenzy.

I realize this contradicts what I've said earlier, but I think people have been doing a great job roleplaying so far.

So when you frenzy you'll get a choice as to whether you want to be in control or not.
If you choose to rp your character's frenzy please consider the following.

Anger Frenzy

No two vampires behave exactly the same way when they enter frenzy, even if they all evince identical intent. It seems that the basic personality of a vampire is distilled into its most predatory during the loss of control, eliminating the obstruction of higher mental function, but retaining certain traits. Outgoing, physical Kindred may howl with rage and tear mindlessly at their prey, while more withdrawn intellectual types become chillingly silent, moving with horrifying precision. Vampires maintain (or manifest) characteristic quirks in the throes of their outbursts, making it clear that there is something uniquely theirs in the eruption — they aren’t giving themselves over to an alien influence, but rather expressing a part of themselves that is normally hidden.

also

Those with enough knowledge of Protean almost always manifest the Claws of the Wild as they lose themselves to the fury of frenzy.

and

For every frenzy that results in the defeat of an enemy, there are
five or 10 that involve inadvisable, foolishly destructive behavior. A vampire who is annoyed because he can’t crack an ancient code might end up tearing the valuable manuscript he studies to pieces. Another who is punched in the face during a botched feeding attempt may end up painting the walls with his intended victim’s brains.
Even a vampire who ends up destroying a hated foe in the midst of frenzy may turn upon a friend who tries to calm her down afterwards. Nobody in his right mind likes to frenzy, and giving control over to one’s basest urges is a gamble that rarely turns up a winning hand.

Rötschreck

A vampire caught in the grip of the red terror is nothing more than an animal, following the fundamental instinct of self-preservation....The direction of fl ight
is not reasonable — the vampire will simply move as quickly as possible to get away from the threat, via the most immediately obvious route.

and

Vampires entering fear frenzy almost always spend Vitae to enhance Physical Attributes or Disciplines, if they can. The Beast will empower itself any way it can to ensure survival, even if that means running low on Vitae for the time being. Many a vampire emerges safely from a fear frenzy, only to realize that he is starving and on the verge of Wassail.

Wassil

Kindred caught up in Wassail will feed openly, pushing would-be competitors and dismayed witnesses both aside as he tears, gobbles and slurps at the nearest available source of blood, desperate to drain every last drop.

and

Kindred entering Wassail rarely expend Vitae to raise Attributes or fuel Disciplines. They are, after all, seeking to replenish themselves — not further deplete their stores of Blood. Once contact with a vessel is made, though, some Kindred will do whatever it takes to
maintain their feeding stance, even spending precious Vitae, if necessary, to fend off interference.

 

[Graf]

Not sure how much I should post, or not post.

If you feel like your characters would just sit in the car and ask each other "what should we do" then that's fine. They've all been through a lot, a quiet moment of decompression is very natural.

I'll come back in a day and see if the group has made some progress (or is at least roleplaying something), if not I suppose I should post some sort of summary?
I prefer not to do that sort of thing, I post a lot already and feel like people should be comfortable being more self directed.

There are no "right answers" and I've largely decided not to try to predict what will happen going forward. I didn't expect people to throughly search (or happen upon I suppose) everything in Frank's room when they did so I didn't really expect things to play out the way that they did.

But choices people make, carry, of course, the potential for repercussions.

 

[Graf]

I've been thinking about this for a bit. Not sure precisely what the most productive way to point out something.

The gist of it would go something like this:
yesterday the group had it's first meeting with the prince.
A couple of members of the group aserted they were extremely willing to track down and kill their sires.
(I confess to being a touch surprised by people volunteering to do that but...)
Having been turned loose with what amounts to instructions to deal with one of the volunteers sires, as well as their location and means to get there, I am a touch surprised that its not being discussed as an option.

Its not a question of "you must do X tonight" but it'll wind up having an impact on everyone.
I guess I'm curious what the basis of the groups consensus is.

 

[WarShrike]

Do they really expect a group of neonates to infiltrate werewolf territory to kill a sire? Especially when they themselves are scared s___less to go there themselves? And without equipment? If we did, it'd be a very shory campaign if you ask me.

 

[OnlytheStrong]

Diego isn't in a hurry at all He wouldn't mind getting Vanderchild, but it's more because he knows it will "up" his status. I had him hold off going after Vanderchild basically because it's against his character to do something so dangerous without thinking it through.

I'm planning on having him dig up what he can by whatever means he can. Maybe go back through his human contacts to find the face of these people, if they are known to the public at all. Then go through the Nosferatu channels to find out more. I imagine he hasn't survived this long without being able to work his way through all the crap to find information.

Also............... I think those ghouls may of just made his list of things to piss off. I'll have to think about how he'd react. They did choke him, but overall he did win out. It's kinda a flip of the coin. Hey! I think I will do that! Head= vengence Tails= content with the temporary victory

lol it was heads..... Imma have to start keeping a list of ppl to kill

 

[Graf]

....a group of neonates to infiltrate werewolf territory ...

Hmm.
I don't usually like to get into things this way but...
There are two reasons why I'm not in love with this sort of responce:

One:
How, IC, does Biggs know anything about Werewolves?
In the world of darkness this stuff is a secret. S-E-C-R-E-T means you don't know about it.
Biggs background doesn't include lupines.
At all.

That means he doesn't know about them.

Two:
I've mentioned this a few times but just because it's in a book somewhere and you've read it (and I presume Warshrike, you're talking as Warshrike and not as Biggs because he doesn't know anything about it) doesn't mean that it'll be true in the game.

I don't mind metagame discussions about stuff, per se, but to be honest I loath metagaming driven IC stuff.
If you want to make an IC reason to do something you'd never normally do talk to me OOC/make an OOC post.

Especially when they themselves are scared s___less to go there themselves?

You've asserted this several times.
For the life of me I can't figure out why.
Who said they were scared? Why does Biggs think this?
(and, for that matter, why does Warshrike think this...)

I've looked through my posts and I didn't see anything like this. I know I can make typos or soemthing but i haven't even found a typo.

And without equipment? If we did, it'd be a very shory campaign if you ask me.

You're OOC opinion has been noted.
This is an OOC opinion right?


As for what people expect....
Biggs background, selected entirely by you, is that he's a
mortal, who hunts vampires
solo,
with a sword

That's suicidal behavor.
OOC Vastly more suicidal, honestly, than fighting a werewolf.

IC What does LB expect? Since you volunteered to do something he probably expects you to do it.
You can not do it: and there are like 5 ways the group could 1) not go after merchant 2) still not get in trouble with LB (That I can think of) but there are no ways that involve telling LB "You're scared of werewolves you big pussy, why should I go do it?"

I'm not a huge fan of this- kind of trouble with LB because
1. It has the potential for characters to be torpored, semi-permenently
2. It has the potential for the characters to wind up with a permenet chaparone.

I don't mind people not going after Merchant, at all, but it doesn't make sense that you're using OOC info to assert soemthing that isn't true IC, and it will end up, most probably with the non-dramatic, non-fun result of Biggs getting staked and dropped in a hole in the ground.

If you didn't want to get sent after your sires OOC this badly, why did you leap forward and announce that you would yesterday? (in game terms?)

It wasn't a forgone conclusion, btw. There were other possibilities but you've kind of made your bed, it's a strange time to suddenly assert that you don't like it.
If you'd, IC, tried for Merchant and he'd turned out to be a methusala, or you'd met lupines and they'd kicked your asses IC at some point already I'd understand it.

I'd understand more conservative characters balking or wanting to get info.
But I don't understand, really, Biggs suddenly being possessed of massive fear of lupines (which he's never met and knows nothing about).

Again, I realize you have (or think you have) lots of special OOC info about how dangerous the situation is. But I encourage you to think in terms of what your characters would do.

 

[Graf]

? And without equipment?

OK. This baffles me too, while we're at it.

What has Biggs done to get equipment? Besides complain that NPCs haven't given him the equipment he wants?
Has he talked about getting equipment with other characters (beyond vaguely asserting that he wants more)? Has he tried to come up with ideas to get equipment? Has he asked OOC for skill checks for ideas (I.e. I'd like to make some sort of role to see if Biggs can think about where to get an X)? Has he made general kinds of roles as to how to get gear?

Nope. He's complained he doesn't have it.

If you're waiting for NPCs to give you stuff, do stuff for you then, honestly, you're gonna be waiting a long time.

I don't really know how to put it but...
this is a vampire game. You get by going out and getting it/making somebody give it to you/what have you.

If this were DnD and LB were the "local duke" and he was hiring you to "clear the forest of goblins" then you could expect that you'd be able to ask him to have his wizard make your weapons "+9 weapons of goblin slaying".
And when you got back you'd get your 500 gold pieces and to dance with his daughter.

But this isn't DnD.

And if you think about it there is a really simple, obvious, IC reason why LB isn't gonna give you any swords, or guns, or thermite grenades or whatever may have been standard issue in some other game you've played.

 

[WarShrike]

I was speaking as Biggs, not WarShrike.
This is Biggs's take on things:
1. He knows vampires are real, so he's open to the possibilities of other things as well.
2. Cole told him there were things that go bump in the night that even a vampire should be afraid of.
3. He's got a specialty in monster movies, so he knows what a classic werewolf is.
4. Nice said Merchant was in "Lupine" territory. Considdering the above, it's not too hard to guess what "Lupines" are.
5. Nice says he knows where Merchant is but hasn't done anything about it.
6. Nice told LB where Merchant is staying, specifying: He knows we don't go there. That, + #5, +#2, has him convinced vampires have good reasons to fear "Lupines", and that these vampires in particular are afraid of going into "Lupine territory".
7. Nice told the group before we left in the car: [Merchant] I was going to take care of him tonight, but... [for some unexplained reason, we're too busy to deal with it]. [A.K.A. Took that to mean he was chickenning out.]
8. I originally misread that speach Nice gave as meaning to stay away from Merchant for tonight. [A.K.A. "We" as in everyone present, are too busy tonight.]

You're OOC opinion has been noted.
This is an OOC opinion right?

It was posted in the OOC thread, so yes, it is.

As for what people expect....
Biggs background, selected entirely by you, is that he's a
mortal, who hunts vampires
solo,
with a sword

That's suicidal behavor.
OOC Vastly more suicidal, honestly, than fighting a werewolf.

IC What does LB expect? Since you volunteered to do something he probably expects you to do it.
You can not do it: and there are like 5 ways the group could 1) not go after merchant 2) still not get in trouble with LB (That I can think of) but there are no ways that involve telling LB "You're scared of werewolves you big pussy, why should I go do it?"

2 swords actually, and we were released into the city with nothing but our pants and shoes. I think hunting werewolves barehanded is far more suicidal than hunting vampires with 2 swords. Until we get properly armed, as far as i can see, it's not goint to happen.

If you didn't want to get sent after your sires OOC this badly, why did you leap forward and announce that you would yesterday? (in game terms?)

While there is no guarantee that they will run into werewolves while going after Merchant (nice said he was on the edge of Lupine territory as opposed to in the middle), he'd rather not take on a gaggle of werewolves naked. And he fully expected to not be naked. LB did say he would help out equipment wise (if i read the post right) but never delivered.

Now, ah also unndastand you ain't all equipped tah go out an' find an' kill yah siahs. Ah assure you that ah and mah sheriff, he gestures to Blackcoat, am gonna be quite diligent on that f______ front.

Hope that explains a bit.

 

[Graf]

Hope that explains a bit.

Eh?
Taken out of context... I.e. just that one line?
I could see a lawyer trying to make that arguement.

It's obvious that LB's not talking about gear. Both he and blackcoat obviously wander around unarmed. Both you and Archer have actually fought blackcoat and she took you apart with her bare hands.

If this were a court of law and you were arguing contracts you might get some sort of nod from the judge.

You're welcome to throw that back in LBs face and see where it gets you.
I mean that completely neutrally. He may buy that it was just a misunderstanding.

Of course you're then saying
"You promised to give me something, you didn't so I'm not gonna do for you"

Which suggests you don't take his being a prince too seriously.

I was speaking as Biggs, not WarShrike.

OK. That's a start. But a lot of stuff below is actually stuff that Biggs doesn't know.

This is kinda a bizaare thing to say, but you're familiar with in character and out of character right?

Everybody's been roleplaying extremely well, so I'd assumed people had some rping experience.

Basically: IN CHARACTER means "Things your character knows".
OUT OF CHARACTER means "Things the player knows"

Generally the player knows a lot more than the character, and there is a tendency for people, especially people who are more gamist (i.e. oriented toward winning) to try to use that OOC information IC.

(I.e. My character doesn't know that the answer to the riddle is "Time" because he was unconcious, but the player knows because he heard another player answer the DM. So I'll just make it so my character knows that too and I can solve the riddle too)

Generally using OOC info IC is frowned upon.

2. Cole told him there were things that go bump in the night that even a vampire should be afraid of.

Cute.
Cole is in the car with you. If Biggs wanted to find out more about Lupines he could just ask Cole.

5. Nice says he knows where Merchant is but hasn't done anything about it.

Nice said he "Just found out." Since he hadn't heard of Merchant, at all the night before you can presume that he'd really just found out.

6. Nice told LB where Merchant is staying, specifying: He knows we don't go there. That, + #5, +#2, has him convinced vampires have good reasons to fear "Lupines", and that these vampires in particular are afraid of going into "Lupine territory".

I think this is a massive stretch.
5 isn't true.
2 isn't a reason. If Biggs thought Cole was warning you about lupines then he'd ask him.

7. Nice told the group before we left in the car: [Merchant] I was going to take care of him tonight, but... [for some unexplained reason, we're too busy to deal with it]. [A.K.A. Took that to mean he was chickenning out.]

I don't know how to put it but Biggs does not have Auspex.
On one hand this is a good catch.
On the other hand?
It's got nothing to do with lupines, (i.e. 1-6).

Your reason for not going was because Merchant is staying in the edge of lupine territory, which is too difficult/dangerous to cross.

If you want Auspex you can swing your unspent discipline dot into Auspex and have it.
(So you'd be Auspex *, Protean **)
Or you can make friends with Beth or Archer.

At the risk of stating the obvious: The spoiler blocks aren't labed AUSPEX - BETH & ARCHER because they're for Biggs.

You can:

• IC try to steer the conversation towards getting info from the other characters (I.e. I'd like to go after Merchant, but I think there may be more going on)
• OOC post saying you'd like it if people share a tidbit for whatever reason.

2 swords actually, and we were released into the city with nothing but our pants and shoes. I think hunting werewolves barehanded is far more suicidal than hunting vampires with 2 swords. Until we get properly armed, as far as i can see, it's not goint to happen.

IC or OOC?

IF it's IC:
Who talked about hunting werewolves?
When?
Why?
If Biggs thinks they need more equipment why isn't he getting it? You were asserting a minute ago that he was operating on horror movies (which is perfectly reasonable). Wouldn't he want silver bullets (for instance).

If it's OOC?
One this is kinda academic, but vampires are killed by two things: fire and sunlight.
Is it possible that the group could role through a hypothetical Lupine territory and get stomped.
Yah, sure
You'd take a bunch of lethal wounds and wanting a bit of blood for sure.
I haven't, for the record, decided whether the werewolves in the game are WtF werewolves or what not. (All those gift lists give me a headache).

But you've got disciplines (IMHO much better than gifts), vampires do agg damage naturally, werewolves do lethal, vampires can feed on dead lupines and heal, lupines have to run of into the woods, shake their furry heinies under the moon for a while and spend essence to heal.

It would be a pretty fair fight (i.e. it would come down to a question of situation and "who's the most optimized in terms of combat).

Mortal vs vampire?
Mortal dies.
If mortal has lots of great skills, good equipment, the element of suprise, and lots of good die rolls?
The mortal may surivive once or twice before dying. (this, btw, is how I see biggs and why Biggs was fighting a ghoul during his prelude. A kindred would just have been too risky/hard to explain.).

The new WoD game, Hunter?
It's got lots of new powers and abilities because?
The ones in the core book aren't enough to take down a supernatural.
IMHO, natch.
The problem really is that without a stake all that happens is the vampire runs low on blood, then they frenzy grapple and drink, the mortal succumbs to the kiss.

While there is no guarantee that they will run into werewolves while going after Merchant (nice said he was on the edge of Lupine territory as opposed to in the middle), he'd rather not take on a gaggle of werewolves naked. And he fully expected to not be naked. LB did say he would help out equipment wise (if i read the post right) but never delivered.

It's fairly obvious I think that LB was talking about your relative power levels.

He led off with a sermon on self-reliance, not on one that said: Every time you want some material good then come to me and I'll buy it for you.

***************************
For that matter what would you do with all this gear you seem to want?

Lets assume that you had two swords, a gattling gun on the back of the car, some M-16s, and grenades.
You roll up to the motel where Merchant is supposed to be staying and? What?

You're on the "edge" of lupine terrotorry. So there could be some lupine around somewhere, what do you do? Open up with the gattling gun on the first hairy guy you see? Maybe follow up with a grenade and then close into melee dual weilding?

This would help you investigate/find Merchant how exactly?

You would explain this breach of the Masquarade (and probable irritation of the lupines) by saying...?

And I'm not even going to talk about the problems you'd have with the police/national guard/etc.

 

[WarShrike]

You're the ST, and you get final say, but that doesn't mean you can twist my words around to make me look like an a$$. I'm not gonna put up with S___ like that.

I'm out.