Klaus
First Post
Like I said, nothing that was proposed seemed to point to "unrecognizable". It was more along the lines of "Choose your preferred version", which was also the way they spoke about duergars and eladrins.
D&D 5E Wandering Monsters: Morons and Salads
- Thread starter GX.Sigma
- Start date
Like I said, nothing that was proposed seemed to point to "unrecognizable". It was more along the lines of "Choose your preferred version", which was also the way they spoke about duergars and eladrins.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Putting the modrons as all "lawful individuals" or substantially re-designing their iconic look would do that, as would giving slaadi a strong body horror/psionic theme and making them akin to the Far Realm.
I'm still not sure what either kind is good for. What kind of adventures would I use them in? What's their role? I get Inevitables. They will be encountered as they go after people and for good reason. Where are modrons encountered? I understand the alien infestation angle they were talking about. What other use is there for slaads?
Shemeska
Adventurer
Must they have a strictly defined "role" in terms of PC-centric use? I'm not sure that they need to in many styles of games. Things can fit a conceptual niche as part of the game universe without having to be there just to satisfy some interaction with the PCs.
But, having said that, encountering modrons in Mechanus and slaadi in limbo, in their respective native environments is one. Encountering either of them in neighboring planes, in planar trade cities, in ancillary roles in the Blood War, etc. Modrons could appear on the material plane to construct some alien, nigh incomprehensible structure and simply refuse to speak to the natives, or be unable to relate to them if it's largely a group of monodrones or duodrones, with the PCs having to determine if the modrons' efforts will cause harm to the area, or might ultimately be there to stave off a massive demonic invasion.
Slaadi on the other hand could appear on the material plane both to cause chaos for its own sake (which doesn't have to be destructive), or a single green or grey could be there for business of its own, seeking out an object. They don't have to be treated as slaadi, they can be like any other NPC with their own motivations and designs, albeit flavored by their status as exemplars of chaos. I tried to make this a little bit easier to work with in Pathfinder by having proteans be loosely organized in ever changing, ever shifting choruses that followed a specific mandate as determined by the priest-king keketars (such as the Chorus of Malignant Symmetry that acted to fight back against the Abyss which they view as a corruption of true Chaos, and which they themselves might have accidentally created or stumbled into and allowed into the universe). You could have lesser slaadi acting on the orders (when they saw fit to bother listening, and occasionally wandering off on their own exploits for the heck of it) of higher caste slaadi for similar things. I would also play up the notion of slaadi being not just about destruction, but about creation, artistry, and whimsy. Too often the slaadi have been portrayed as demons-lite, especially in 3e and 4e unless a specific author was playing back on their 2e development and going for a deeper exploration of them.
Celebrim
Legend
I'm strongly opposed to that. I don't believe that the Slaad need to be made more monstrous. Monstrousity is not the essential nature of Chaos. Horror at some level shouldn't even be on the table. Again, I think this view is heavily influenced by Chaos in its original conception being 'the black hats', 'the foes', and the general bias of 'chaotic evil is evil but more evil' and 'lawful good is good but more good' that afflicts D&D's theology/cosmology. The Slaad are already too monstrous to be well suited for their role in the cosmology. If you make them more monstrous, all they are is demons that are aren't affected by Prot. Evil and Smite Evil. The demonic and the monstrous should be avoided in favor of the whimsical and the simply strange. A bit of monstrousity goes a long way, and should be balanced by things which are attractive and sympathetic. I honestly do not thing Chaos is an unappealing philosophy for most players, and indeed quite the contrary. Most American players are practically incapable of playing a Lawful character IME. Chaos is not an 'alien' philosophy. Therefore, making it incarnated by things that are strange and unappealing is rather bizarre.
Slaad are not monsters; they are 'fey' (in the sense of the adjective, rather than the noun). They are inscrutable. They are capracious. Some of them can be monstrous, but they can also be companionable and sympathetic. Things from the far realm don't have these characteristics.
Zazzashef is strange looking, but not unattractive. Haskismet is just bizzare looking, but not as I see 'her' monstrous. She's so ugly she's cute, like a pet frog or turtle. Kluigbuul isn't meant to look frightening, but comic. The only reason I didn't make them more humanoid and more attractive in their preferred form, is I was afraid it would suggest that they are more human in their emotions and motivations (you get this problem even with how fiends are conceptualized at times!). A few of the Lords I created are as is suggested by the text tending toward evil, and or so portrayed in a more monstrous manner by my text but even then many of those Lords are pitiable like handicapped children in a way that consciously monstrous fiends never would be. Most of them can shapechange into rather sympathetic humanoid forms, and that would be one of the more common ways of interacting with them.
I've always seen Slaadi as totally primordial beings of chaos, nothing to do with Fiends/Aberrations.
Prototypical amphibian freaks.
And what Shemeska said (as usual), about everything.
And modrons can be constructs, as they come from a pool in Mechanus/Nirvana, are not born.
Prototypical amphibian freaks.
And what Shemeska said (as usual), about everything.
And modrons can be constructs, as they come from a pool in Mechanus/Nirvana, are not born.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
1of3 said:
Both fall into the camp of "difficult-to-deal-with, not-necessarily-hostile NPC's"
Modrons are alien, weird, and authoritarian. They are the kind of thing the PC's meet when you want to enforce how utterly and fundamentally different the other planes can be (think: "Blue and Orange Morality"). Inscrutable and largely indecipherable, modrons seem to adhere to a logic, but a logic that is difficult for those not part of their network to understand. They should inspire a sort of uneasy laughter in the players, a desire to tread carefully. These things are weird, but they're powerful, and they're numerous, so if you set off one of their triggers it could go badly for everyone involved, and you're never entirely sure what might trigger them. They can be useful allies if your purposes are aligned, but never entirely safe beings, never something you can really predict the actions of.
Slaadi fit a similar role, but rather than a sort of institutionalized madness, they are more of an affable destructive force. Dangerous, prone to violence, and always looking to cause trouble and screw the system, they disrupt the world wherever they tread. This disruption isn't always negative, and can even be fairly positive, but it's always quite traumatic. You can't trust a Slaadi because you know their allegiance is always and ever only to themselves, and their own desires are to fulfill whatever whims come to their mind. They're powerful enough that few others can reign them in, so they largely treat the universe like some sort of cosmic plaything, like a kid with play-doh, destroying and re-forging it. PC's who encounter Slaadi should have a similar reaction to PC's who encounter modrons, but with modrons it's a lot of talking and negotiation and understanding (if you get them, you can use them well). With slaadi, it's a lot of arm's-length persuasion and a constant readiness to change tracks with them. You'll never get a slaadi. The best you can hope for is to go along for the ride.
In both cases, they fill a role similar to a lot of the old stories of the Fey: weird, otherworldly, powerful, incomprehensible, but not exactly hostile, either. Just different. Dangerous, but different.
If you want to "three pillars" it, they're primarily an Interaction challenge. Fail and they will become enemies in combat and will hurt your goal, succeed and they will become allies and will help your goal.
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Celebrim
Legend
Slaads (and modrons for that matter) can be used anywhere you want to introduce an extraplanar power where it the means and motivations of the power are such that the PC's are likely to be placed in a moral delimma. Slaad can have good means and bad motives, or bad motives but good means. They can want something that the PC's might be sympathetic to, and the PCs will have to decide whether to side with the Slaad or try to thwart them.
For example, suppose the PC's thwart an assassination attempt on the young crown prince - a mere 12 year old boy. They discover that the would be assassins are Slaad. Frustrated, the Slaad contact the PC's and try to explain to the PC's their viewpoint. Slaad seers have learned that the young boy will grow up to be a very terrible tyrant. He'll establish a cruel, soulless, and dominating empire which will last for centuries before falling in blood, commit genocide, burn cities, trample down all sorts of fine and beautiful things, and will be personally responsible for the deaths of hundred's of thousands of people. Moreover, the PC's can see by interacting with the young boy that he does seem arrogant, cruel, and ambitious. He's very charming and prodigiously intelligent, but he says things that are scary and foreboding. No one else seems to be that concerned by the Prince's behavior. The Slaad just want to avoid centuries of banal art and static ugly colorless lives where people live each weary day the same as the previous one, and they don't understand why can't the PC's see the necessity of this? If you knew that a kid was going to grow up to be The Dark Lord, would you stop him? If not, what would you do?
One of the posts I never got around to making in my Slaad thread was a list of adventure ideas involving the Slaad and the Slaad Lords I created. Some of them were quite low level. For example, Ofingreshiritfik's adventure idea is for 1st level characters. The player's arrive in the aftermath of a natural disaster - an earthquake, which caused a devestating fire. Unbeknown to them, but perhaps known to a few of the wise in the city, the 'natural' disaster was actually Ofingreshiritfik passing through the city. All the descruction, and subsequent death, was his doing. After departing the plane, he stranded a number of his agents, most of which quickly died. One however was found quite sickly by a young CN friendless girl of sorcerous blood (1st level sorcerer), who in the process of caring for it accidently bound it has her familiar - saving its life. She now treats the creature as her pet. Her parents believe she has an imaginary friend. The girl herself knows that her new pet is naughty, and gets into trouble when she's not around to take care of it, but believes the crimes to be confined to childish mischief and vandalism. In fact, the creature has 'innocently' been killing some of the children that bullied her. The PC's are asked to investigate the murders, with the trail eventually leading to this innocent 9 year old girl with an 'imaginary' friend. Once they figure out what is going on, they have to figure out a just way to deal with the problem. If her real nature and relationship to the crimes is revealed, the girl will be executed. If the girl's familiar is killed, not only will she be traumatized, but she'll possibly be pushed toward evil and in any event she won't stand idly by and let it happen without lots of persuasive and insightful counseling.
These stories can't be done if the Slaad are mere monsters and inherently evil in their nature. They can occupy 'gray' areas in a way that demons or angels can't (or rather IMO shouldn't) be.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
No, they kind of do, if they're important enough to get an article on them, meaning they're likely to show up in the first Monster Manual.
D&D isn't a fantasy universe simulator, where things like stench kows are important, because they explain how fiends can get cheeseburgers to eat (although I'd just have them make burgers out of the damned, myself). Everything in the Monster Manual needs to have a justifiable reason to appear in a game. Either slaadi and modrons need to not be in the Monster Manual 1 (my preferred scenario -- save them for a later volume that fills in the fantasy ecosystem for those who want that covered) or they need to have something to offer at the actual table where actual play is occurring. (As opposed to, f'r instance, all of the late oWoD books White Wolf produced that were clearly for people buying the books for reading purposes and with very little thought, if any, as to how it would actually be used at the gaming table or LARP.)
That seems like something the (admittedly pretty boring) formians (or whatever those Nirvana ants are called) would do better.
Unfortunately, I think except for Planescape fans, slaadi have always been presented as demons-lite, even in the Fiend Folio. I would say that they need some surgery to be made into the more interesting critters you want them to be used as. Their stats say "body horror demon," since the egg implantation thing was there from the very beginning. (They've also had the whole issue with hierarchies since the beginning too, unfortunately.)
Honestly, I think both of these critters should be shelved until the 5E Manual of the Planes, when not-terribly-useful-at-the-average-gaming-table stuff can be introduced, and their spots in the Monster Manual should be made available for more readily used stuff.
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