Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[charlesatan]

I'd also like to clarify that yes, you can take a move action while recovering your maneuvers as a Warblade. But nonetheless, moving isn't an attack, and I'd expect that by the time you're recovering maneuvers, you're in the thick of combat.

 

[dvvega]

And that is what I originally said. CustServ state Stanard action with a house ruling to make it full round.

 

[Nightfall]

*still thinks Warblade rocks. *

 

[BASHMAN]

Hold on.

If he can recharge as a Swift action, what's to say he can't make a melee attack using a now-recharged maneuver?

the text. It says that you cannot initiate a manuver in the round you refresh one.

 

[Perun]

It would be interesting to see a well-built (test) fighter, to compare him to Nail's warblade. I'd do it myself, but I'm lousy at optimisation of any sort. Any takers?

However, here's a warblade from actual play, from the Eberron campaign where I DM. the character is not overly optimised, and was created with a 32 points (warforged get +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha):[sblock]
X-27A
Warforged Warblade 2
CN Medium Construct (living construct)
Init +2, Sences Listen -2, Spot -2
Languages Common
-------------------------
AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 17
(+2 Dex, +5 mithral body, +2 heavy steel shield)
hp 27 (2d12+6 HD)
Immmunities poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause sickened condition, energy drain
Resistance light fortification (25% chance to negate critical hit or sneak attack)
Fort +6, Refl +2 (+4 Battle Clarity), Will -2
-------------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee masterwork scimitar +6 (1d6+3/18-20)
Melee falchion +5 (2d4+4/18-20)
Melee slam +5 (1d4+3/×2)
Attack Options Manoeuvres, oil of repair light injury (1d8+1)
Action Points 4
Base Atk +2, Grp +5
-------------------------
Manoeuvres Known (4)
Steel Wind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Leading the Attack
Stances known (1)
Punishing Stance
Manoeuvres Readied (3)
Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind, Leading the Attack
-------------------------
Abilities Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 6, Cha 10
SQ warforged traits, weapon aptitude, uncanny dodge
Feats Mithral Body (ECS)
Skills* Balance +3, Climb +4, Concentration +8, Craft (blacksmithing) +7 (+9 to repair warforged), Jump +4, Knowledge (local) +6, Martial Lore +3
Posessions backpack, warforged repair kit, crowbar, oil (1 pint), whetstone, sunrod (5), heavy steel shield, masterwork scimitar, falchion, wand of repair light injury (46 charges)

* Include armour check penalty for both armour and shield, where appropriate[/sblock]

Also, here's a fighter I created a while ago (actually, it's one of about a dozen character I've got in reserve ), for a theoretical future campaign (also created with 32 points):[sblock]
Maristin
Half-Elf Fighter 1
N Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +2, Sences Listen +3, Spot +3, low-light vision
Languages Common, Elven, Halfling
-------------------------
AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 17
(+2 Dex, +4 scale mail, +3 heavy wooden shield)
hp 12 (1d10+2 HD)
Immmunities sleep effects
Resistance +2 racial bonus vs. enchantment effects
Fort +4, Refl +2, Will +2 (+4 Combat Focus)
-------------------------
Speed 20 ft. (base 30 ft.)
Melee longsword +3 (1d8+2/19-20)
Melee dagger +3 (1d4+2/19-20)
Ranged longbow +3 (1d8/×3)
Action Points 5
Base Atk +1, Grp +3
-------------------------
Abilities Str 15, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 9
SQ half-elf traits
Feats Shield Specialisation (heavy; PHB II), Combat Focus (PHB II)
Skills* Climb +2, Diplomacy +1, Gather Information +1, Handle Animal +0, Jump +2, Listen +3, Search +2, Spot +3, Swim –4, Ride +3
Posessions Backpack, Waterskin, Flint & steel, Common lamp, oil (5), Bedroll, Trail rts. (×5), Hempen rope, 50 ft., Belt pouch (23 gp, 3 sp, 8 cp), Longsword, Shortbow, Scale mail, Shield (heavy wooden), Dagger, Arrows (40), Holy symbol (wooden), Whetstone

* Include armour check penalty for armour (but not shield [-2]), where appropriate[/sblock]

 

[BASHMAN]

For example: Making a great Trip Monkey requires lots of feats (Exotic Weapon, Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Impr. Trip, Weapon Focus, etc......including all of those cool PH II feats...) and no one has the feats to do that except the Ftr. Meanwhile the Ftr can do that, plus do other things well.

Actually, you just described my character. Half-Orc Monk15/Swordsage 1 (he got the weapon focus spiked chain and unarmed strike thanks to discipline focus: shadow hand). Doesn't have expertise, because monks don't need it to get improved trip. EWP spiked chain was something he recently picked up. Also, add Knock-Down to that list of feat combos (automatic trip attempt if you do more than 10 damage to an opponent).

 

[BASHMAN]

Actually the best way to make a FAIR comparison between a warblade and fighter is to make them the same race, with the same exact attribute scores, same equipment, and the same level of course. Only things allowed to be different is class and choice of feats.

Then let them fight eachother, but instead of rolling, assume every dice roll comes up 15 on a d20 (yes, far higher than average, but if it were a 10 nobody'd ever hit). Assume every damage roll comes up dead average.

 

[Victim]

Just a mention on the whole Warblade recovery thing. I decided to contact WOTC customer service and they have confirmed that the melee attack is intended to be a Standard Action.

Wow, I didn't know people still asked customer service rules questions.

As far as I'm aware, Knockdown was never updated to 3.5. For good reason.

In my experience, conventional melee types aren't really weak. They are, however, inflexible in that they can basically just attack things, and somewhat boring to play since pretty much everything they do is determined in character creation/development rather than in play. It'd be nice if the ToB classes addressed the latter two issues without power creep.

 

[Victim]

Actually the best way to make a FAIR comparison between a warblade and fighter is to make them the same race, with the same exact attribute scores, same equipment, and the same level of course. Only things allowed to be different is class and choice of feats.

Then let them fight eachother, but instead of rolling, assume every dice roll comes up 15 on a d20 (yes, far higher than average, but if it were a 10 nobody'd ever hit). Assume every damage roll comes up dead average.

How is one v one fighting relevant again?

 

[glass]

Just a mention on the whole Warblade recovery thing. I decided to contact WOTC customer service and they have confirmed that the melee attack is intended to be a Standard Action.

It is retrievable with an attack action (which is a standard action). You can indeed take a 5-ft step as well.

Here's the other response I got from CustServ:

The rules only mention an attack action, which would normally be a standard action! Now if the DM wanted to allow the recovery after a full attack action, that would seem reasonable as well, but the Dungeon Master would have to let everybody know that this was a specific ruling for his/her own game. Have fun and good gaming!

All that confirms is that CustServ can't (or don't) read. Which we already knew.


glass.