D&D 5E Warlock Higher Level Spellcasting: Too easy to counter/dispel or effective?

[Eejit]

I also dispelled their armor of agathys and countered their fireball when they changed up their tactics. Basically, if the warlock tries to cast, he gets countered and it really seems to hurt him far worse than a wizard or sorcerer. Has this come up for you much DMing warlocks or playing one?

My DM wasn't much into using counterspell. When he did try it out I instead cast where the counterspell-er couldn't see me (being a halfling helped) or out of its measly 60ft range.

Fireball has a cast range 2.5x longer than counterspell, though of course there isn't always room to take advantage of that.

P.S. how do you play the caster knowing which spells to counterspell? When do you announce it as DM?

 

[Celtavian]

What kind of experiences are you hoping for? My experience is that an NPC caster can easily shut down any PC caster class using counterspell, warlock or wizard both are equally hit. What makes you feel this is a problem specific to warlocks?

Because they only have 2 spell slots per short rest until 10th level and 3 until 16th level. Whereas a 9 level caster class has 15 by 10th level and 18 by 16th level. Big battles generally favor classes with the ability to blow off resources as needed versus per short rest.

Up to 10th level a dispel magic or counterspell eliminates 1/2 the warlock's available spell power for that battle and only a 1/15th for a 9 level caster. That is a pretty substantial difference.

 

[Mirtek]

.Is this an unusual tactic that many DMs don't employ?

can't really say. I only play AL and there it's the other way round.

Aka the spellblasters are there to hammer the Party and the melee enemies are there to give them the save space to do so.

Just monday when I was playing my paladin rather than my warlock and we got hammered by level 4/5 slots because the enemy Frontlinie was doing such a good job at keeping us at bay and our casters failed 4 counterspell checks (that's what happens when you try to save your slots by countering too low) i was missing how easy it's for my warlock

 

[Celtavian]

My DM wasn't much into using counterspell. When he did try it out I instead cast where the counterspell-er couldn't see me (being a halfling helped) or out of its measly 60ft range.

Fireball has a cast range 2.5x longer than counterspell, though of course there isn't always room to take advantage of that.

P.S. how do you play the caster knowing which spells to counterspell? When do you announce it as DM?

I announce it when it occurs. The counterspeller/dispellers sole focus is on countering PC casting. So he is very focused on the opposing casters, usually starting off the battle invisible or behind heavy cover doing nothing else but waiting for a caster to unleash some magic. His primary purpose is to allow the martial enemies to continue to hammer on the PCs, since they are an easy, free source of damage.

Though it has been a big harder to keep soft target casters like wizards alive with Sharpshooter archers in the group. Only full cover works to protect them. Usually I have them position where they can quickly behind full cover. Then they rely more on dispel magic than counterspell.

 

[Celtavian]

But that's the while point. It's a powerful Kombination (although my level 9 bladelock has bot yet to used it even once due to it's party unfriendlyness) and the Achilles heel you describe is supposed to be part if the package. Just reserve it for fights you're pretty sure have no enemy counterspelled and you're prepared for the complaints from the rest of the party
IMHO that's again the point if the warlocks.

He is an eldritch blast archer or pact weapon basher, who occasionally throws a spell when the situation is right.

He is not a spell caster who resorts to EB/pact weapon occasonally.

When I think I spotted an enemy caster I immediately bury any thoughts at casting a spell, since stopping a level 3-5 spell hitting is worth much more than me throwing one more fireball or blight

Hmm. So you think it is likely intentional that they be reduced to eldritch blast with situationally effective casting. If DM tactics discourage something like the darkness/devilsight combination, then that is working as intended. The warlock should focus on spells that don't attract the focus of opponents that can dispel/counterpspell.

That may be the intent behind the warlock. So maybe I shouldn't feel bad if I turn them into a one trick pony given that trick is highly effective.

 

[Celtavian]

The action economy is the main factor here. An enemy caster using Counterspell isn't also casting Shield so he will die quickly, and dispel magic is usualy a waste of an action compared to using another spell to directly hurt the players.

Eliminating the action economy advantage of the party is the main reason counterspell/dispell is so effective. The PCs are usually using spells to eliminate a bunch of martial foes in big blasts, something that martials are not great at. If you counter a caster using a spell to eliminate a mass of enemy martial enemies like a group of hobgoblins or demons that is advantage to the enemy as far as action economy goes. PCs casters are force multipliers because their spells often allow them to do things that eliminate opponent actions by killing large numbers with an AoE spell or crowd control like hypnotic pattern. That's why countering or dispelling them makes fights so much harder on PC parties.

 

[Eejit]

I announce it when it occurs. The counterspeller/dispellers sole focus is on countering PC casting. So he is very focused on the opposing casters, usually starting off the battle invisible or behind heavy cover doing nothing else but waiting for a caster to unleash some magic. His primary purpose is to allow the martial enemies to continue to hammer on the PCs, since they are an easy, free source of damage.

Though it has been a big harder to keep soft target casters like wizards alive with Sharpshooter archers in the group. Only full cover works to protect them. Usually I have them position where they can quickly behind full cover. Then they rely more on dispel magic than counterspell.

If they're staying behind heavy cover it should often be possible to out-range the counterspell.

I was really wondering how the caster knows which spells are being cast that are worth counterspelling? Can they always correctly identify the spell? Do they do it for everything, including cantrips?

 

[spectacle]

Eliminating the action economy advantage of the party is the main reason counterspell/dispell is so effective. The PCs are usually using spells to eliminate a bunch of martial foes in big blasts, something that martials are not great at. If you counter a caster using a spell to eliminate a mass of enemy martial enemies like a group of hobgoblins or demons that is advantage to the enemy as far as action economy goes. PCs casters are force multipliers because their spells often allow them to do things that eliminate opponent actions by killing large numbers with an AoE spell or crowd control like hypnotic pattern. That's why countering or dispelling them makes fights so much harder on PC parties.

But where is the problem in this? Nothing wrong with having to change your tactics sometimes. Do you include an enemy caster in every fight? Then I can see your caster PCs getting frustrated that their spells are always counterspelled. Do the martial characters in your party lack ranged attacks? They should make killing the enemy caster their top priority.

When I try to use an enemy caster against my players they usually kill him on the first round...

 

[Celtavian]

can't really say. I only play AL and there it's the other way round.

Aka the spellblasters are there to hammer the Party and the melee enemies are there to give them the save space to do so.

Just monday when I was playing my paladin rather than my warlock and we got hammered by level 4/5 slots because the enemy Frontlinie was doing such a good job at keeping us at bay and our casters failed 4 counterspell checks (that's what happens when you try to save your slots by countering too low) i was missing how easy it's for my warlock

A warlock using his slots for counterspell seems like a good idea. You can keep hex up and use your slots to counter enemy casters.

 

[Celtavian]

If they're staying behind heavy cover it should often be possible to out-range the counterspell.

It is fairly easy in 5E to go out of range. Sharpshooter makes it way too easy to annihilate casters at range. There's no way for a caster to hide if not invisible with Sharpshooter other than full cover.

I was really wondering how the caster knows which spells are being cast that are worth counterspelling? Can they always correctly identify the spell? Do they do it for everything, including cantrips?

After reading the sage, I believe you know the spell and level it is cast if within range to use counterspell unless you're using something like subtle spell to avoid the caster seeing the casting. There is no check or anything required. You know what you're countering and get to choose accordingly.