D&D 5E Warlock Higher Level Spellcasting: Too easy to counter/dispel or effective?

[Celtavian]

As a DM I've found that it is very easy to ruin a warlock's spellcasting abilities with opposing casters. The low number of spell slots per battle with the short rest spell recovery mechanic makes spells such as counterspell and dispel magic hit them harder than other casters in key battles with enemy casters.

One powerful combination one of my warlock players has been using is the darkness combined with devilsight to create a situation like the advantage of greater invisibility. This combination seems powerful, but even a relatively low level opponent caster with 3rd level spells can cast dispel magic eliminating this advantage with no roll, while at the same time taking away half the warlock's spell slots for that encounter.

It seems that countering or dispelling a warlock will reduce them to eldrtich blast for many key fights making them an impotent spellcaster against spells "long rest slot" casters. What is the experience of other DMs and warlock players? Is it to easy to counter warlock casting abilities rending their spell casting ability impotent? Or do they seem able to use their spells effectively in a battle against opposing casters?

 

[Eejit]

Counterspell and dispel magic are also very highly effective against casters with more spell slots due to the action economy.

They're even stronger against Warlocks in longer fights, yes, though to what extent depends largely on the tired old chestnut of how many combats vs short and long rests you have in any given day (and please let's not repeat that discussion for the 57th time )

For specifics remember that whoever's casting counterspell has to be able to see their target casting and be within 60ft - that gives a smart player tactical room to avoid it.

With both dispel magic and counterspell I'd interpret the auto-dispel as being based on spell level cast at rather than the base level of the spell itself - which would help somewhat.

 

[spectacle]

Agree with [MENTION=6780256]Eejit[/MENTION], I'm not really seeing the issue here. It is very easy to ruing any caster's day with enemy mages using Counterspell and Dispel magic, since NPCs rarely have any reason to conserve spell slots and 5E fights are typically short. at least the Warlock will get his slots back after a short rest, the wizard who had his only 5th level spell counterspelled will be sad for the rest of the day.

I agree with Eejit's interpretation on spell level. Darkness cast with a 4th level slot is a 4th level spell and you would need to cast counterspell/dispel magic in a 4th level slot to auto dispel it.

 

[Celtavian]

I'm hoping for some folks to provide examples based on experience. My experience has shown me it is a big deal. Enemy casters don't have to worry about conserving slots. They can blow them off in a single combat. A powerful enemy caster has a lot of slots to counter the warlock and not break a sweat doing other things. Even one dispel or counter to a warlock with 2 slots is half their spell power gone. A caster with the equivalent of level 18 casting ability is only a CR 12 encounter. If that CR 12 caster is supporting a group of minions, he can pretty easily dispel a warlock without using much of his overall power available for the entire battle. If he is able to use counterspell, then he need only spend a reaction.

The casters I've used so far to counter the low level warlock have been in the lvl 7 caster range. They were able to elminate the warlock's 2nd level darkness spell without a serious expenditure of their spell power and still have plenty available to fight the rest of the party.

The warlock players in my group try to use combos with a lot of bang for the buck. If that combo can be shut down very easily by a dispel or counterspell, they're pretty much reduced to eldritch blast, not even necessarily with hex given they've used up their concentration trying to cast the darkness ending their hex. That means both spell slots are down. I felt mean doing it as a DM given how much it neutered the warlock. At the same time I can't see an enemy caster allowing a warlock to walk into his minions wiping them out using the darkness and devilsight combination given how effective it is when it works.

I wonder if I were to eliminate the concentration requirement for hex that might help them some, at least allow them to maintain their damage output.

 

[Mirtek]

From the thread title i believed this would be a complaint that warlocks are overpowered counterspelling machines, too easily shutting down enemy casters.

No, i don't think there is a problem with warlocks beging counterspelled. That's effectively still them shutting down an enemy level 5 slot and that's a huge gain for the party.

If the warlock is really counterspelled by a slot if less than 5th level, that's just bad luck from time to time. Usually having to do an unmodified ability check just means you're going to waste the slot.

 

[Eejit]

Honestly Devil's Sight + Darkness not being a one-size-fits-all solution to every situation isn't the end of the world. If dispel magic is going to be used by NPCs the player(s) should adjust and come up with additional tactics.

 

[Celtavian]

Hmm. I usually play casters supporting minions or other monsters. Their primary job is to counter/dispel effective PC casting tactics and not generally to cast offensively, so using up a 5th level slot to counter someone's spell isn't considered a party win. I look at that as a DM win because it eliminates a 5th level powerful spell tactic the party was going to employ as a force multiplier. I'll add that information in. This tactic is highly effective against PC parties, it seems extra effective and almost punitive against warlocks.

PC casting is generally the biggest problem a DM has to overcome. One of the best ways to overcome it is a dedicated counterspell/dispel caster or casters to keep the martial combatants from being neutralized or disempowered by spellcasting.

Is this an unusual tactic that many DMs don't employ? I don't know. It seems every time I enter one of these discussions, I'm told the problem seems to apply to my particular DM play-style. If you were dealing with a DM that had a dedicated enemy caster positioned so he could not be easily engaged countering/dispelling your spells, would that make you feel far less useful as a player? Would it make you feel particularly useless as a warlock with a lower number of spell slots available for a battle?

 

[Celtavian]

Honestly Devil's Sight + Darkness not being a one-size-fits-all solution to every situation isn't the end of the world. If dispel magic is going to be used by NPCs the player(s) should adjust and come up with additional tactics.

I also dispelled their armor of agathys and countered their fireball when they changed up their tactics. Basically, if the warlock tries to cast, he gets countered and it really seems to hurt him far worse than a wizard or sorcerer. Has this come up for you much DMing warlocks or playing one?

 

[Mirtek]

.One powerful combination one of my warlock players has been using is the darkness combined with devilsight to create a situation like the advantage of greater invisibility. This combination seems powerful, but even a relatively low level opponent caster with 3rd level spells can cast dispel magic eliminating this advantage with no roll, while at the same time taking away half the warlock's spell slots for that encounter.

But that's the while point. It's a powerful Kombination (although my level 9 bladelock has bot yet to used it even once due to it's party unfriendlyness) and the Achilles heel you describe is supposed to be part if the package. Just reserve it for fights you're pretty sure have no enemy counterspelled and you're prepared for the complaints from the rest of the party

It seems that countering or dispelling a warlock will reduce them to eldrtich blast for many key fights making them an impotent spellcaster

IMHO that's again the point if the warlocks.

He is an eldritch blast archer or pact weapon basher, who occasionally throws a spell when the situation is right.

He is not a spell caster who resorts to EB/pact weapon occasonally.

When I think I spotted an enemy caster I immediately bury any thoughts at casting a spell, since stopping a level 3-5 spell hitting is worth much more than me throwing one more fireball or blight

 

[spectacle]

I'm hoping for some folks to provide examples based on experience. My experience has shown me it is a big deal. Enemy casters don't have to worry about conserving slots. They can blow them off in a single combat. A powerful enemy caster has a lot of slots to counter the warlock and not break a sweat doing other things. Even one dispel or counter to a warlock with 2 slots is half their spell power gone. A caster with the equivalent of level 18 casting ability is only a CR 12 encounter. If that CR 12 caster is supporting a group of minions, he can pretty easily dispel a warlock without using much of his overall power available for the entire battle. If he is able to use counterspell, then he need only spend a reaction.

What kind of experiences are you hoping for? My experience is that an NPC caster can easily shut down any PC caster class using counterspell, warlock or wizard both are equally hit. What makes you feel this is a problem specific to warlocks?

The action economy is the main factor here. An enemy caster using Counterspell isn't also casting Shield so he will die quickly, and dispel magic is usualy a waste of an action compared to using another spell to directly hurt the players.