D&D 5E Warlocks and high level play

[FormerlyHemlock]

So, Mystic Arcanum. That more than anything worries me. They seem rather...bad. Once per day abilities from a very limited list, hence very little customization.

They're not so bad that you wouldn't want to have them. It's nothing like being a wizard or a druid, but some of the abilities are rather good, probably as good as a feat. Mass Suggestion and Create Undead at 6th level, Forcecage at 7th, Demiplane at 8th, and Foresight or True Polymorph at 9th... hmmm, I think I just proved your point for you, didn't I? For the abilities that I've just called out, there are only four possible build permutations. (Mass Suggestion/Foresight, Mass Suggestion/True Polymorph, Create Undead/Foresight, Create Undead/True Polymorph.) In reality there are a few others that might be worth taking[1] but it winds up being pretty narrow. By the time you've had two high-level warlocks you'll probably be sick and tired of those options and itching for a change.

Who knows though whether that is a problem in actual play. Not many people seem to play to 20th level at all, let alone multiple times in the same class.

-Max


[1] If your DM lets you take Etherealness as your 8th level invocation, castable as an 8th level spell, that is quite good; and Create Undead at 8th level might be worth taking too.

 

[Celtavian]

So, Mystic Arcanum. That more than anything worries me. They seem rather...bad. Once per day abilities from a very limited list, hence very little customization.

Were I to play a warlock, I would be half tempted to stop once I hit level 10 or so, and start leveling in sorcerer or something.

A wizard and sorcerer only get 6 spell slots of 6th to 9th level. A warlock gets 4 along with invocations. A sorcerer only has 15 spells known at level 20. A warlock has more than that plus invocations and eldritch blast and hex. And Pact Magic.

Mystic Arcanum aren't bad at all. It's 2/3rds the power of a sorcerer or wizard with all the other perks of being a warlock.

One of the biggest problems I've seen with the warlock is the 4 spells per short rest. It looks not too bad on paper. In practice it can be very hard on the warlock. An opponent caster can counter or dispel those four spells barely expending any resources making the warlock feel like his spells are impotent.

 

[JackOfAllTirades]

Regardless of "build" I think the Foresight spell does it for me. My Warlock is going straight to 17th level without getting sidetracked by multi-classing; after that we'll see.

 

[EroGaki]

Regardless of "build" I think the Foresight spell does it for me. My Warlock is going straight to 17th level without getting sidetracked by multi-classing; after that we'll see.

Out of curiosity, what sort of build do you have planned?

Maybe my own experience has colored my perception, but I've stopped paying attention to end game spells/abilities. The highest level game I've ever been involved in is 13th level; foresight sounds amazing, but I'll never actually reach that level, so I'd much rather multiclass and cherry pick abilities I can use now.

 

[JackOfAllTirades]

Out of curiosity, what sort of build do you have planned?

Maybe my own experience has colored my perception, but I've stopped paying attention to end game spells/abilities. The highest level game I've ever been involved in is 13th level; foresight sounds amazing, but I'll never actually reach that level, so I'd much rather multiclass and cherry pick abilities I can use now.

During HotDQ I acquired a black dragon mask which adds my CHA mod to AC when I'm not wearing armor, so my DEX-based BladeLock is using Armor of Shadows, maxing out DEX and CHA, and using a magic rapier for a pact blade. He's focusing on spells that enhance his combat ability (Armor of Agathys, Blink, Greater Invisibility, etc.) instead of "blasting" type spells. It's working pretty well so far; he's not the best damage-dealer, but he's crazy accurate. Basically, if he's not attacking with advantage, I'm doing something wrong.

Coming up on 11th level and I'm having trouble deciding on which Mystic Arcanum to choose for this type of build; Eyebite is probably the best fit.

And outside of combat he's the party face-man cuz his CHA is awesome.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Out of curiosity, what sort of build do you have planned?

Maybe my own experience has colored my perception, but I've stopped paying attention to end game spells/abilities. The highest level game I've ever been involved in is 13th level; foresight sounds amazing, but I'll never actually reach that level, so I'd much rather multiclass and cherry pick abilities I can use now.

I do both: plan for a good experience on the path to level 20, and a good endgame that will be worth reaching. There's nothing worse IMO than feeling like your character is at a dead end, and that level 8 is his peak with nowhere to go from here. That's what happens when you multiclass greedily and it is no fun at all, IMO.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I do both: plan for a good experience on the path to level 20, and a good endgame that will be worth reaching. There's nothing worse IMO than feeling like your character is at a dead end, and that level 8 is his peak with nowhere to go from here. That's what happens when you multiclass greedily and it is no fun at all, IMO.

During HotDQ I acquired a black dragon mask which adds my CHA mod to AC when I'm not wearing armor, so my DEX-based BladeLock is using Armor of Shadows, maxing out DEX and CHA, and using a magic rapier for a pact blade. He's focusing on spells that enhance his combat ability (Armor of Agathys, Blink, Greater Invisibility, etc.) instead of "blasting" type spells. It's working pretty well so far; he's not the best damage-dealer, but he's crazy accurate. Basically, if he's not attacking with advantage, I'm doing something wrong.

Coming up on 11th level and I'm having trouble deciding on which Mystic Arcanum to choose for this type of build; Eyebite is probably the best fit.

If I may suggest: if your concentration is busy with Greater Invisibility and your action is busy making attacks, Eyebite has very little to offer you. Mass Suggestion takes no concentration and can thin out enemy ranks ("We are too strong for you--surrender!"), while Create Undead can provide you with three ghouls as meat shields and paralyzers so you can auto-crit on your attacks (and so can everyone else). Either would be more compatible with your described style than Eyebite would.

 

[JackOfAllTirades]

If I may suggest: if your concentration is busy with Greater Invisibility and your action is busy making attacks, Eyebite has very little to offer you. Mass Suggestion takes no concentration and can thin out enemy ranks ("We are too strong for you--surrender!"), while Create Undead can provide you with three ghouls as meat shields and paralyzers so you can auto-crit on your attacks (and so can everyone else). Either would be more compatible with your described style than Eyebite would.

Yes, I'm looking very strongly at Mass Suggestion. I also like the fact that it would be useful outside of combat.

If I go with Eyebite, it'll be an either/or proposition since I can't use it with Greater Invisibility. However, we're facing more enemies with blindsight and other abilities that ignore invisibility as we rise in level, so Eyebite offers another tool for getting advantage if I succeed in putting an enemy to sleep. I'm not crazy about the saving throw, however.

We've got a Necromancer in the party (my girlfriend's character) so I'm deliberately staying out of the Undead business. That's her "schtick" and I'm letting her have it.

So yeah, there's a good chance I'll go with Mass Suggestion. I haven't decided yet.

 

[S'mon]

I think I've always hesitated rolling up a warlock because of the limited spell slots. Yes, they regain them on a short rest, but I don't like relying on the DM's good graces for the necessary time; my DM in particular is fond of the "race against time" adventure,, where the clock is ticking and we have to rush from one nightmare to the next.

Playing a warlock would feel like having one elixir in a Final Fantasy game; I never used it, because I feared wasting it when it on something minor, only to have a boss show up. I can see myself never casting anything but cantrips, because I'd be afraid of using my only two slots, and then have something bigger show up before the party could rest.

My experience as GM running a sandbox is that the Warlock seems very limited and is
always running out of spells, unless he can short-rest frequently - and 5e isn't set up for resting after every fight. And even his good
spells are usually only slightly better than a round of berserk attacking from the barbarian.
I'm pretty sure a Bard or Wizard would have more impact, able to nova, use lots of rituals for free, etc.

 

[TrippyHippy]

I don't honestly know how the Warlocks class balances out verses other Classes at higher levels. I play one, but have yet to get to that level, myself.

However, there are a number of cool looking invocations and spells for Warlocks beyond level 10 so I think there should be a lot of motivation to keep going. The main thing, though, is that the archetype is just so important for the game. It provides a genuine alternative magic user to the Wizard in style, and corresponds with a lot of fantasy figures from literature and film. Any class that allows you to play Elric, as is, is worth it in my view!