Was 3rd edition fundamentaly flawed?

[Anthtriel]

Not only not an issue, I find it a bonus. One of the top five best things about the system, in fact. It's a good in itself. 3e is not very complex at all to me, unless one goes far out of one's way to make it so. I've done that in the past, but it's a choice on my part to throw everything but the rules for the kitchen sink into an NPC. Nothing in the rules forced me to slap the saint template, a version of half-celestial, a prestige class from FR, feats from the Book of Nine Swords, and so forth on top of a dwarf cleric. But it all fits him, and he's one of the most important NPCs in the campaign, and the players are going to be going into battle with him, and the players adore the guy, so it was worth going the extra mile.

Non-PCs using the same rules as PCs is one of the killer applications of 3e and its absence in 4e alone virtually destroyed the product for me. I don't want a less robust, less consistent system. I want more of both. Ideally, lots more.

Back when 3E came out, I loved the ability to make a fiendish gnoll mage and considered it a great improvement. At the beginning I even followed the instructions faithfully.

Nowadays, I just throw a few stats and maybe some spells and a few abilities together and call it a day. Minor stuff like skills can be made up on the spot.
Not only does that take a lot less time, it also tends to play a lot better.


Your mileage may, and apparently does, differ, but I don't see why I have to care what Knowledge skill an Orc Warrior has, or what cantrips a wizard has memorized.
And I certainly don't have the time anymore to faithfully advance a monster and apply templates, that likely cannot be properly balanced anyway.

 

[Samnell]

Back when 3E came out, I loved the ability to make a fiendish gnoll mage and considered it a great improvement.

It still is, for my money. You seem to be complaining that it's too much work. That's not a complaint about the rules, but about the availability of your free time. If you were discussing something like grapple that might come up in play, that's different. Rules that do derail play are certainly fair game.

But I'm well aware that I'm in the audience WotC of which desperately wants to be rid. I'm a tinkerer. I like rules. I have the time to spend on them, and mastering them so that putting a template on a creature is not any great burden. For that matter, I enjoy the prep time. It's fun.

 

[Bacris]

I don't know that they want to be rid of you.

For example, you could simply use the PC rules to make an NPC. While that might not be the "standard" rule for 4E, nothing says you can't.

And I agree, when I had the free time, I loved to create truly customized NPCs - at least, for the important NPCs. Knowing what feats, levels, items, and skills they had made them feel more real to me as the DM, which then made it easier for me to convey that same feeling of "real"-ness to my players.

 

[Zamkaizer]

But I'm well aware that I'm in the audience WotC of which desperately wants to be rid. I'm a tinkerer.

LOL WUT?

If the info we've seen thus far is any indication, the designers are encouraging tinkering, and making the rules much more conducive to it. Making customized creatures the dominion of more than the most temporally gifted seems more an endorsement than an indictment of the practice. You're not jealous that more will have the opportunity to do what you're so proud of, are you?

 

[schroederlance]

I like 3E, but 4E will be easier to DM. Prep time and unnecessary complexity make 3E a chore to run. That's its fatal flaw. I don't think anyone noticed that flaw at the time they were writing it, because the rules were such an improvement over 2E that it didn't matter if it took a bit more time to write a 14th level character--at least you had a more unified system that made internal sense. But these are things that come out over time like a nail in your floor. The more you walk on that floor, the more it snags you, until one day you come at it with a hammer.

This, more than anything I've read about 3E so far, sums up my feelings toward the current system. Well put sir!

 

[Gundark]

I like 3E, but 4E will be easier to DM. Prep time and unnecessary complexity make 3E a chore to run. That's its fatal flaw. I don't think anyone noticed that flaw at the time they were writing it, because the rules were such an improvement over 2E that it didn't matter if it took a bit more time to write a 14th level character--at least you had a more unified system that made internal sense. But these are things that come out over time like a nail in your floor. The more you walk on that floor, the more it snags you, until one day you come at it with a hammer.

Well put. I really really liked 3e at first. Except that damn nail (or in my case nails).

 

[Charwoman Gene]

But I'm well aware that I'm in the audience WotC of which desperately wants to be rid. I'm a tinkerer. I like rules. I have the time to spend on them, and mastering them so that putting a template on a creature is not any great burden. For that matter, I enjoy the prep time. It's fun.

ZOMG! They r letting casuals get free EPIXXX!!!!!!

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

It still is, for my money. You seem to be complaining that it's too much work. That's not a complaint about the rules, but about the availability of your free time.

It's a complaint about the rules if they could have designed the system to give me everything I need with less prep time. And they're claiming that they can do so.

But I'm well aware that I'm in the audience WotC of which desperately wants to be rid. I'm a tinkerer. I like rules. I have the time to spend on them, and mastering them so that putting a template on a creature is not any great burden. For that matter, I enjoy the prep time. It's fun.

I'm a tinkerer. I like rules. See my sig for examples. I don't like the drudge work of character and monster design and customization. I want to say, "hey, here's a neat idea for a character," jot down a few things, and be ready to go in five minutes instead of fifty. When I tinker with rules, the idea is that I want to do it once, and then it should function for me. I shouldn't have to constantly be getting under the hood of the thing. Once I pimp my game, it should perform.

 

[Samnell]

If the info we've seen thus far is any indication, the designers are encouraging tinkering, and making the rules much more conducive to it. Making customized creatures the dominion of more than the most temporally gifted seems more an endorsement than an indictment of the practice. You're not jealous that more will have the opportunity to do what you're so proud of, are you?

Could you put some more veil on the insult?

Making subtly different rules systems to produce monsters and PCs isn't a step forwards. At the most charitable, it's a lateral move. I don't follow d20 Modern, but I know several like rules subsystems work differently there from D&D and even the designers don't seem to remember the fact. But widespread and subtle changes are all the easier to trip up people trying to use the system. WotC has a history of making those kinds of changes, often for little to no reason. All the spells that changed name in 3.5 are a great example. The game isn't any better because random action turned into lesser confusion, or circle of doom turned into inflict mass wounds, but it's a kick in the pants for anybody accustomed to using their mastery of the rules to navigate new rules.

 

[hong]

Exactly. Rewarding rules mastery is no longer a guiding design principle. And thank god for that.


Hong "not a fan of grinding" Ooi