Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

 

[Guest 6801328]

Because the eye could see a very, very long way and eagles would be seen long before they got to Mordor. Sauron had many servants who could fly, so the odds of failure by flight were great. Sneaking, however...

Yeah, what could possibly go wrong?

The other contrived answer I've heard is that the Eagles are servants of Manwe, and thus cannot directly interfere in the affairs of Middle Earth. Except they do, multiple times. So then the rationalists attempt to explain how those other interventions were a support role and didn't directly impact the outcome...

Etc.

/eyeroll

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If Dannyalcatraz's position were correct (that magic items are exceedingly rare, and that free folk would willingly hand out those magic items to defeat evil) then they wouldn't have left Glamdring in Thorin's tomb. They'd be using it.

That depends on how they view property- explaining why it would be put in the tomb in the first place- and grave robbing to get to it later.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So why not use eagles?

Damn if I know. Perhaps Maxperson has the right of it upthread: increased risk of failure as compared to stealth. Perhaps they were doing something else vital to the struggle. Perhaps it is nothing more than a manifestation of JRRT's writing style.

And what caused the problem with Sauron in the first place? In part, an excessive concern with the power that might be granted by magic items!

One could argue that the origins of the problem with Sauron lies within the personal motivations of Morgoth and Sauron.

So what got us the MAD doctrine? Possession of nuclear weapons and fear of their proliferation. Response? Make more. Yet they ended WW2 a lot faster and with less loss of life than conventional forces would have. They had a time and place when they were the tool for the job.

In Middle Earth, what happens if Sauron wins makes using magic to defeat him a calculated risk worth taking.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Morgoth. Sauron fought the elves and men.

...who was more powerful than Sauron.

Even so, it isn't like all the elves wouldn't remember and recognize the threat of Sauron, once it was revealed. They still have that perspective.

The elves are far fewer than they used to be and most of their best weapons and smiths are dead and lost. They don't have the stores of the dwarves who are relatively untouched. Morgoth was focused on the elves, not the dwarves.

All the more reason to offer what they can, to avoid extinction.

 

[Maxperson]

...who was more powerful than Sauron.

Who didn't bother with dwarves.

Even so, it isn't like all the elves wouldn't remember and recognize the threat of Sauron, once it was revealed. They still have that perspective.

All the more reason to offer what they can, to avoid extinction.

First, the elves didn't have the numbers of weapons they once had, since they lost the to the orcs. Second, elves were both taller and more slender than men, and used weapons of different design. Elven swords weren't like mannish swords. Giving out weapons and armor to men would have meant armor that didn't fit and weapons that they didn't know how to use effectively, creating large penalties than the +1 from the weapon.

Creating a situation where your allies can't fight effectively is a very poor way to avoid extinction.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, what could possibly go wrong?

A lot less than flying directly into the path of The Eye. Flying would have been one of the most stupid ideas they could have come up with.

 

[Hriston]

Yes it is. I just re-read it because you cast doubt on my recollection. But yes. The Unfinished Tales are broken and convoluted narratives, of course, since they're essentially the unfinished texts that Christopher found on various topics. But one of the texts he includes there speaks to the Istari being sent by specific Valar.

The Valar decide 3 messengers shall be sent, and Aulë suggests Curumo (Saruman), while Oromë sends Alatar (a Blue Wizard). Manwë then asks Olórin (Gandalf) to go with them, even though Olórin doubts his abilities and fears Sauron. It's Varda who realises that Olórin shall not be third but shall be the greatest of them all, and Curumo remembers this prophecy.

Then Yavanna, the wife of Aulë, begs Curumo to take Aiwendil (Radagast) with him, and Alatar takes Pallando (the other Blue Wizard) as a friend with him, at the request of either Oromë or of Mandos and Nienna (unclear which).

Sadly, I no longer possess a copy of Unfinished Tales. I did find a statement in Tolkien's letter #200 that Olorin had been "attached" to Manwe, however, and a footnote referring to Unfinished Tales, p 393. In contrast, the Valaquenta names Olorin as a dweller in Lorien, which seems to associate him with the Vala Irmo, as well as his tutelage under Nienna. It also names him as the wisest of the Maiar.

 

[Guest 6801328]

A lot less than flying directly into the path of The Eye. Flying would have been one of the most stupid ideas they could have come up with.

No, sorry, this is the worst answer I've ever seen for the "Why not use the Eagles" question.

At this point, when the Fellowship set out, they were unaware of flying Nazgul. Even the "because they are servants of Manwe and thus can't interfere" explanation is much, much better than this one.

EDIT: Wait, this is such a terrible answer that I can't just leave it at that.

"A lot less than flying directly in the path of The Eye". I mean...what?!?!?! They're going to send people to WALK to Mordor (insert over-used quote here), with no known ways of getting in except for Morannon and past Minas Morgul, both heavily watched, with mounted Nazgul able to sniff out the ring.

And you think a "lot less" could go wrong with that plan, than simply flying there? Even if Sauron "saw" the Eagles...the swiftest known (or probably unknown) creatures in Middle Earth...what could he do about it? Absolutely nothing. At least, not with any of the powers we've seen from him or anybody else to date.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

No, sorry, this is the worst answer I've ever seen for the "Why not use the Eagles" question.

At this point, when the Fellowship set out, they were unaware of flying Nazgul.

Sauron can control weather (the Darkness/Dawnless Day), and I think the Wise knew this (Elrond had been involved in the last war against Sauron, and even if he hadn't demonstrated the ability before, Gandalf would have known what kinds of powers Maiar would be likely to have).

Also, the Nazgul themselves were not yet flying, but that doesn't mean the Wise wouldn't have known that Sauron had access to flying creatures.

They're going to send people to WALK to Mordor (insert over-used quote here), with no known ways of getting in except for Morannon and past Minas Morgul, both heavily watched,

Hobbits can be quite stealthy, and Gandalf knew that from previous experience.

It wasn't a safe plan by any means (Gandalf calls it a "fool's hope"), but it was the least doomed, the only one that had any meaningful chance at all.

Also, Gandalf seems to have believed (correctly, it seems) that the hobbits were the key for more than purely tactical reasons. "Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker."

Even if Sauron "saw" the Eagles...the swiftest known (or probably unknown) creatures in Middle Earth...what could he do about it?

Summon weather to kill them. Use flying monsters, with or without Nazgul riders.

But even if Sauron had no anti-air or flying capability, just being detected would have doomed the whole thing. All Sauron had to do was put a guard on the Cracks of Doom.

 

[Maxperson]

Meanwhile at the Council of Elrond.

Gandalf: We need to get to the ring to Mount Doom. The eye of Sauron is ever watchful and so stealth is required.

Anderson of Dale: We can fly there on eagles.

Elrond: The eagle idea would doom us all should we undertake it. The instant they entered Mordor, the Eye would fall upon them and their riders and none would survive the power of Sauron. He wouldn't even need his Nazgul at that point.

Anderson of Dale: It would succeed because eagles!!!!

Gandalf: No. Not even the eagles are mighty enough to resist the power of Sauron in his home. They would not get close to Mount Doom before destruction came to all in the Fellowship

Anderson of Dale: Because eagles!!!!!!

Gandalf: You should leave now.

Elrond: Mr. Anderson....you will be escorted by two elves back to the borders of my home. The wisest of the Maia and the wisest of the elves have to come up with a plan that has a chance, however slim, of working. Bye now.

The rest of the Fellowship: What they said.