Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

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Night.

Flying.

Lack of thermals, so the eagles would get exhausted faster (which is already going to be a huge problem for long-range transport).

And that assumes night would even impair Sauron's vision, which I'm not at all certain of given that Morgoth's servants are tied to darkness.

I just think it's ludicrous to think that Eagles would have had worse odds than Hobbits on foot.

I disagree. Giant Eagles are clearly less stealthy than Hobbits on foot, and the only way this plan can work is by stealth.

Also, one critical problem with the Eagle plan - if a guy like Boromir becomes obsessed with the Ring, Frodo can run and hide. If an Eagle gets obsessed with the Ring while 1,000 feet off the ground, there's nothing Frodo can do.

If that's the reason they didn't use the Eagles then it would have been brought up at the council then discussed and decided against. But it wasn't even brought up.

That does strike me as odd. OTOH, who would have brought it up?

Gandalf, Elrond etc. wouldn't expect it to work or wouldn't expect the Eagles to agree.

I'm not sure how much, say, the men of Gondor or the Dwarves know about the Eagles - it's said in the Hobbit that they avoid humans, so most people wouldn't know that they are intelligent.

Bilbo knows, and Frodo presumably does since he's heard the story, but they reasonably might not have thought of it.
 
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It's entertaining (and a bit perplexing) how people limit their conceptions of the possible in a fictional world. Talking giant eagles that are manifestations of divine spirits? No problem. Flying ability? Oh, that's limited to what American bald eagles can do.

I do have to ask, because TWO people who feel this strongly on the topic seems improbable (and reminds me of the joke about always traveling with a bomb in one's suitcase): are you (Khisanth) and Maxperson friends IRL?
 

It's entertaining (and a bit perplexing) how people limit their conceptions of the possible in a fictional world. Talking giant eagles that are manifestations of divine spirits? No problem. Flying ability? Oh, that's limited to what American bald eagles can do.

I do have to ask, because TWO people who feel this strongly on the topic seems improbable (and reminds me of the joke about always traveling with a bomb in one's suitcase): are you (Khisanth) and Maxperson friends IRL?

I suppose it's theoretically possible. Nobody I know has told me they are on this site, though.
 
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It's entertaining (and a bit perplexing) how people limit their conceptions of the possible in a fictional world. Talking giant eagles that are manifestations of divine spirits? No problem. Flying ability? Oh, that's limited to what American bald eagles can do.

I believe the Hobbit talks about the eagles getting tired out on the (much shorter) flight in that book, and they are afraid of shepherds with bows. They seem to be non-magical beyond speech/intelligence and size.

But if they were more like the First Age Eagles, who were "manifestations of divine spirits", then they wouldn't be allowed to intervene too directly, and even if they were they would be more susceptible to the Ring's temptation. (The hobbits' resistance is partly due to their lack of power.)

I do have to ask, because TWO people who feel this strongly on the topic seems improbable (and reminds me of the joke about always traveling with a bomb in one's suitcase): are you (Khisanth) and Maxperson friends IRL?

Not as far as I know - and it's a common and hotly contested topic in LOTR discussions. Not that improbable.

EDIT: Someday I really ought to go through the HOME volumes on LOTR and look for evidence whether Tolkien considered the eagle option, but certainly not today... I have too much RL stuff to do to look through 2000 pages for an internet argument.

I also have to point out that Tolkien, himself, for 'story reasons', absolutely loathed the idea of having the eagles carry the protagonists more than what he had them do in the story as is evidenced in his critique of an early draft of the Saul Zaentz Company's screenplay of the LR.

Well, "I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness." (my emphasis), which seems to me to mean that it wouldn't have worked besides making a bad story.
 
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Let's face it, the Eagles would have worked brilliantly.

So why didn't Elrond and Gandalf ask them to? Because...big shocker coming here...they aren't real people making optimal decisions. Tolkien didn't have his characters do any such thing because the story would have sucked.

<snip>

So we don't need to explain why the Eagles weren't used, or why magical weapons weren't handed out. The answer is simply that doing so wouldn't have been as good of a story.
I think there is also an infiction explanation: destroying the ring is a type of redemption for the free peoples. They had to do it; not Gandalf, and not the eagles.

Discussing the quest to destory the ring as if it's an optimisation problem along the lines of the D-Day landings seems to me to miss quite a bit of the point of the book, at least as conceived of by its author.

And before I forget...the argument that Frodo was going to be able to sneak in because he was stealthy is nonsense: Hobbits going into Mordor alone was never part of the plan. They sent some decidedly non-sneaky companions with him.
They didn't have a plan to get in when they left Rivendell, did they? It was a case of making it up along the way. Likewise with the military diversion, mentioned by [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]. That was not an original part of the plan - apart from anything else it depended upon Aragorn coming openly to Gondor, which was on the cards but by no means a foregone conclusion.
 

Second, elves were both taller and more slender than men, and used weapons of different design. Elven swords weren't like mannish swords. Giving out weapons and armor to men would have meant armor that didn't fit and weapons that they didn't know how to use effectively, creating large penalties than the +1 from the weapon.

It was a long weekend and i missed out a lot. Training on Friday and Sunday, 8 mile run on Saturday, followed by a Saturday night DnD session (anyone remember those, it's why we are here ;) ); and only now on a lunch break do i get to write a bit. This is not meant as personal response to Maxperson, but i had to start from somewhere.

First of all, related to the quote above. Elves and Men, were much more interchangeable then Dwarves and Men. Taller and slender they were, and younger looking but still from a first glance you could not distinguish between them (especially the men of the West). Turgon even left a full set of equipment for Tuor (hauberk, shield and sword.... possibly a helmet, i don't remember) and it was never implied it was any different then what the rest of his household had. Turin was equipped as a knight from Thingol's guard as well. Gandalf is clearly human, and he wields Glamdring. I don't think there is any reason to believe elves use incompatible equipment to humans.

Now, on the nature of Thingol's dwarven armory. There is just no way of saying if it was magical or not. All we know is that dwarves made stuff of higher quality then most elves (definitely better then Thingol's Sindar). But were they magical? Nothing indicates so. Even Narsil had no apparent magical properties before being reforged. But's lest step aside from that, just one moment. By the time of the Counsel of Elrond, by Gloin's and Gimli's words we are informed that dwarves too lost lots of their craft, despite making some progress in establishing new foothold in the Lonely Mountain. And justly so, as some of their finest smiths were from Nordod and Belegost, both lost at the end of the 1st age. IRC only in mail making have the dwarves of the 3rd age regained some former mastery and possibly even surpassed their forefathers. Aside from that..... again, no indication of any magical properties of the equipment of either Gimli or Leglas. It is even stated that "dwarves make light of burdens" when Gimli takes his armor with him, which at least to me sounds like dwarven armor (mail) isn't any lighter then usual.

On Dwaves being stubborn and stingy. Indeed they were.... but not when fighting a common cause. The folk from the Blue Mountains equipped Thingol (though probably for a price) and Thorin did Bilbo a shirt of mithril for crying out loud!

As to the balrogs and their physical form being vulnerable to common damage..... this might as well be so..... but not because Saruman was killed by a knife or an arrow. Saruman was in mortal form, fallen and mortal when struck down. However, at least in the early writings, balrogs were slain but falling od a cliff, drowning and fighting powerful Eldar and one human, Tuor. We could argue that Tuor and the Eldar were well equipped, but that does not account for the other cases. And yeah, that was way back, when balrogs were supposed to be more numerous, but less powerful. But again, is a far stretch to believe that normal damage could kill one? Consider magic in Tolkien's world. Aside from divine magic, most of it is actually elemental and/or manipulation of matter. So, if a wizard could slay a balrog with say, a lightning, or making a large rock falling over it, why a large enough damage from a "conventional" weapon do it? In this case, it is only the skill and "durability" of the fighter that matters, not the weapon.

And finally, on the trip to Mordor....... Have we forgotten, what was said in the counsel? Sending Glorfindel with them was suggested. Sending a company of Rivendell knights in full mail was considered. In the end, a conclusion was reached. Sauron is too clever to be fulled or tricked. He we would expect every "wise" move they could make against him. So what was the least he would expect? Something that in his arrogance he might overlook? A small set of feet, secretly and beyond all hope sneaking in and destroying the only weapon that could overthrow him. They knew they won't win by might, wisdom or magic. They hoped they won't lose by foolishness. A "fool's hope" they called it. And it relied on friendship and loyalty. And that is what the book is trying to convey.
 

I think there is also an infiction explanation: destroying the ring is a type of redemption for the free peoples. They had to do it; not Gandalf, and not the eagles.

Discussing the quest to destory the ring as if it's an optimisation problem along the lines of the D-Day landings seems to me to miss quite a bit of the point of the book, at least as conceived of by its author.

They didn't have a plan to get in when they left Rivendell, did they? It was a case of making it up along the way. Likewise with the military diversion, mentioned by [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]. That was not an original part of the plan - apart from anything else it depended upon Aragorn coming openly to Gondor, which was on the cards but by no means a foregone conclusion.

Oh, don't get me wrong...I'm certainly not arguing they should have asked the Eagles! I fully agree it's not an optimization problem. In fact, I got into this debate defending Maxperson regarding magic items. Dannyalcatraz was saying "if magic items were available they would have handed them out for this important mission." My take is that both that question, and the question of using the eagles, misses the point entirely about epic fiction.

I'm only arguing that the reason for not using the Eagles is not that sending Hobbits on foot was more likely to succeed. (Apparently, according to some, giant talking Eagles have to follow observed real world aeronautics, but Sauron only needs 30 minutes to create a a hurricane out of a calm day.) Not only is that silly conjecture, but it's just unnecessary: the reasons are the ones you allude to. Whether or not Gandalf & company "knew" that the free peoples had to do it for themselves, the storyteller knew.

I mean, if the only reason to not use the Eagles was that they'd get spotted as soon as they entered Mordor, why not at least ask them to fly Frodo and Sam to Ithilien and both save time and avoid a dangerous journey? Story, not ability.
 

Oh, don't get me wrong...I'm certainly not arguing they should have asked the Eagles! I fully agree it's not an optimization problem. In fact, I got into this debate defending Maxperson regarding magic items. Dannyalcatraz was saying "if magic items were available they would have handed them out for this important mission." My take is that both that question, and the question of using the eagles, misses the point entirely about epic fiction.

I'm only arguing that the reason for not using the Eagles is not that sending Hobbits on foot was more likely to succeed. (Apparently, according to some, giant talking Eagles have to follow observed real world aeronautics, but Sauron only needs 30 minutes to create a a hurricane out of a calm day.) Not only is that silly conjecture, but it's just unnecessary: the reasons are the ones you allude to. Whether or not Gandalf & company "knew" that the free peoples had to do it for themselves, the storyteller knew.

I mean, if the only reason to not use the Eagles was that they'd get spotted as soon as they entered Mordor, why not at least ask them to fly Frodo and Sam to Ithilien and both save time and avoid a dangerous journey? Story, not ability.

Another reason for not using the eagles is that they possibly couldn't be asked. They lived in remote eyries high in the mountains, that were inaccessible to other races. The only reason they saved Thorin & Co. was because they saw the fires in the woods below and came down to investigate. Helping Gandalf escape from Orthanc was also somewhat of a coincidence, as Gandalf had asked Radagast to send messages to all birds of the air to assemble at Isengard because he anticipated the need to send messages from there quickly after his meeting with Saruman. In short, the eagles were not at the beck and call of the Wise.
 

Discussing the quest to destory the ring as if it's an optimisation problem along the lines of the D-Day landings seems to me to miss quite a bit of the point of the book, at least as conceived of by its author.
Agreed. But, one of the attractions of RPGs is the opportunity to reduce epics and heroism to precisely such pragmatic intellectual exercises.
 

Another reason for not using the eagles is that they possibly couldn't be asked. They lived in remote eyries high in the mountains, that were inaccessible to other races. The only reason they saved Thorin & Co. was because they saw the fires in the woods below and came down to investigate. Helping Gandalf escape from Orthanc was also somewhat of a coincidence, as Gandalf had asked Radagast to send messages to all birds of the air to assemble at Isengard because he anticipated the need to send messages from there quickly after his meeting with Saruman. In short, the eagles were not at the beck and call of the Wise.

Yup, makes sense.

So we have:
- They're largely independent, not necessarily "allied" with the wise, and hard to reach on a moment's notice.
- They may not be allowed to directly interfere in the war against Sauron.
- Gandalf recognizes that this is something the free people have to solve for themselves, not have others solve for them.

All solid (and interrelated) reasons why they don't ask the Eagles.

Hobbits walking into Mordor inherently a less risky plan than having Eagles fly there? Not so much.
 

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