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ways to increase BAB other other than leveling

Valicor

First Post
If your playign a 2 year campaign, jsut make a one tiem excaption, it isn't goign to through your entire multi-verse into a knot. I'm sure you probally have more then one pC who got messed up in soem way or another, and maybe even a few npc's?

Just make an exception for the characters that where made long before epci came out. Any new characters, can be made, with the rules under consideration. Right?
 

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wallshot said:


They dont call it BAB after level 20. It becomes an epic bonus to attack. That way it doesnt conflict with the BAB extra attacks rule.
If U read my earlier post in this thread it explains why they did it that way.


I get it now. In that case I would have to say he is SOL. If he wanted to be that good in a fight, he should have invested his first 20 levels in combatant classes. Granted, we didn't know two years ago that epic level would cap off the number of attacks you could make, but two years ago we didn't even know epic would ever exist.

Every core class is 1 BAB away from a extra attack at 20th level. It would be as dissapointing for them as any multi-classer. If you want to let him get it, I would follow Crothian's advice, or give a one time BAB bonus to everyone at 21st level, to make things fair.
 

LordAO

First Post
I think it's stupid the way they did attack bonuses and saves in the ELH, because now everyone is worrying about having this combination of levels in that order, unfairly screwing people who make the "mistake" of getting this class at this level instead of that one. All it does is give power players another wepon in their arsenal and leads them further down the road to min/maxing obsession. In the mean time, those who actually care about their character and things like roleplaying get screwed by the rules into having a suckier character. Why should my attack bonus and all of my saves be one point lower (an yes that does matter) because im a Wiz 12/ War Wizard5/ Archmage 5 and i got the extra 2 levels of Wiz after 20th level. If i had got 12th lev wizard before lev 20 and only lev 4 in the other classes my attack and saves would all be 1 pt higher. Its the exact same combination of levels and the exact same character. Why should i be punished because of the order i got those classes?! So if somebody wants to give their characters the benefit of the doubt, I say get over it.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Since he can cast wish, at an exp point cost, he could cast enough wishes to cause him to lose a level (raising attributes, creating a ring of three wishes, whatever). He can then take his next level as Ranger and get that BAB he wants, and he has the benefit from casting all those wishes.
 

Jalkain

First Post
LordAO said:
I think it's stupid the way they did attack bonuses and saves in the ELH, because now everyone is worrying about having this combination of levels in that order, unfairly screwing people who make the "mistake" of getting this class at this level instead of that one. All it does is give power players another wepon in their arsenal and leads them further down the road to min/maxing obsession.

Yep, even more posts with things like 'My Sorceror is getting Prestige Class x at 6th level, and Prestige Class y at 10th level, and I would like Haste, but I'm waiting for Mass Haste at 12th level, etc, etc, etc.'

And then you find out that he's still rolling the stats for his 1st level character...
 

LordAO

First Post
With all due respect, my post is arguing against that kind of number gaming! The way the ELH does things only encourages it, which is why I don't like it!
 

doktorstick

First Post
LordAO said:
...unfairly screwing people who make the "mistake" of getting this class at this level instead of that one. All it does is give power players another wepon in their arsenal and leads them further down the road to min/maxing obsession. In the mean time, those who actually care about their character and things like roleplaying get screwed by the rules into having a suckier character...Its the exact same combination of levels and the exact same character. Why should i be punished because of the order i got those classes?! So if somebody wants to give their characters the benefit of the doubt, I say get over it.
The tone of your post does not suggest that you care about the development of your character, but rather you also are trying to min/max, or rather complaining that you are forced to min/max to have a less "suckier" character. I say get over it. Those who "actually care...and things like roleplaying" are going to have a more "suckier" character because they didn't dump their least vital scores (like charasima).

Actually, what your post does sound like is that you min/maxed and are now upset that you didn't have enough foresight to know that BABs were not going to work the same. And now your buddy is laughing at you because he has a slight edge.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Email and messages come out flat and the tone often gets lost.

/ds
 

kreynolds

First Post
Plane Sailing said:
Since he can cast wish, at an exp point cost, he could cast enough wishes to cause him to lose a level (raising attributes, creating a ring of three wishes, whatever).

You can't spend so much XP creating a magic item that you would lose a level. If you don't have enough XP to spend without losing a level, you can't make the item.

Killing him would be easier, though it certainly isn't a solution to the problem, and the ELH is not the problem.
 
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doktorstick

First Post
kreynolds said:
Killing him would be easier...
I thought the general consensus was that you couldn't select different feats, choose different skill point allocation, raise a different attribute, or re-roll HP when you gained a level? If I recalled correctly, why would you allow a different class?

Given that I am wrong, I am certain that the general concensus that HP are not re-rolled. I suspose you could scale (up or down) the current hit die and assume he gained/lost that much with his new class.

/ds
 

SpikeyFreak

First Post
Things are set the way they are to keep the characters balanced in combat. If you start giving classes more attacks then they were meant to have, you are going to start imbalancing things in combat.

If combat is really important in your game, I would let him rethink a choice he made in the past, but I wouldn't break the rules.

If it isn't I would give* him a minor artifact that raised his BAB by one.

I would do one of those things. I don't know if they are wise choices....

--Epic Spikey

*give = allow him to go on a rather long quest to find.
 

kreynolds

First Post
doktorstick said:
I thought the general consensus was that you couldn't select different feats, choose different skill point allocation, raise a different attribute, or re-roll HP when you gained a level?

That would be news to me.
 

Aust Diamondew

First Post
Elh

I have not read the ELH yet but this whole classes progress completely differently after level 20 thing might deter me from getting it in favor of a different system.

Why not just have the classes progress normally after level 20? Spell casters gaining +10th spell slots for metamagic feat usage. Fighters getting a new feat at level 22, Rangers getting favored enemy #6 at level 25 Barbarians raging 7/day at level 24 etc.

The biggest problem would be a monks unarmed dmg dice. It would go through the roof.

Saves, bab etc. could improve normally.
 

mikebr99

Explorer
Re: Elh

Aust Diamondew said:
I have not read the ELH yet but this whole classes progress completely differently after level 20 thing might deter me from getting it in favor of a different system.

Why not just have the classes progress normally after level 20? Spell casters gaining +10th spell slots for metamagic feat usage. Fighters getting a new feat at level 22, Rangers getting favored enemy #6 at level 25 Barbarians raging 7/day at level 24 etc.

The biggest problem would be a monks unarmed dmg dice. It would go through the roof.

Saves, bab etc. could improve normally.

Classes get bonuses after 20th level. WoTC wanted to cap the number of attacks at the 20th level range simply because there is only so much you can accomplish in 6 seconds.
 

apsuman

First Post
Izod, I have a question, what are his levels in each class?

I would have to come down on the side of the all players, the trade off of multi classinghas, well, a trade off.

g!
 

rushlight

First Post
I see no reason you couldn't just use Wish to get +1 BAB. You can easily use Wish for +1 Strength, which confers +1 to attack, along with bonus to damage, and many other benefits. Wish can provide many, many other things besides. Spending 5000 XP isn't something to sneeze at. With a sympathetic GM who wouldnt' mind allowing one more attack it should be a cakewalk.

To be perfectly honest, as a GM of a very long running campaign that has had characters shift from 2nd edition to 2nd edition Skills and Powers eventually to 3rd edition I've allowed alot more than a +1 BAB for much less than 5000 XP. Not everyone feels the same way, I know. If the GM doesn't mind though, the Wish allows an in-game method altering your stats. Remember that a Wish can do ANYTHING, as long as the GM allows it.
 

kreynolds

First Post
rushlight said:
I see no reason you couldn't just use Wish to get +1 BAB.

Because that's not the type of bonus that Wish can even grant you. Only level gets you that.

rushlight said:
You can easily use Wish for +1 Strength, which confers +1 to attack, along with bonus to damage, and many other benefits.

So? The bonus to attack from Strength doesn't have the capability of granting you another attack. Increasing your BAB could give you another attack, which is outside the boundaries of a Wish. A wish, after all, can't level you either.

rushlight said:
Wish can provide many, many other things besides.

Except for an increase in BAB.

rushlight said:
Spending 5000 XP isn't something to sneeze at.

Irrelevant. If you're 19th level, you need 19,000 XP to get another level, which might or might not increase your BAB, based upon your class. So, sometimes, even 19,000 XP won't get you another attack.

There are 2 solutions to this problem.

1) Create another character and scrap the old one.
2) Quit crying and deal with it. If he's a role-player, this shouldn't be a big deal for him (this assumes, of course, that this individual possesses at least the maturity of a 10 year-old).
3) Stop. Breathe. Think about how hard you have worked to build your character. Think about everything your character has been through, good and bad. Think about all your character has learned. Think about how much your character has grown, developed into something with a personality nearly it's own. Sit back. Now, if none of that makes you feel better, quit role-playing and pick up Diablo II.

This isn't a flaw in the system. This isn't something that needs to be fixed either. When someone stops thinking about the individual their character is, when they stop thinking about what class to take because it might actually make sense for their character to walk that path, they are no longer a role-player.
 

Ridley's Cohort

First Post
The reason for differentiating the first 20 levels from later levels is to lock in the "feel" of the character. Otherwise the multiclass incentives would tend to make all characters more similar as they go up in levels beyond 20.

Also remember that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If you fudge the rules to let this PC get his 4th iterative attack any character with a 19 or 20 BAB would rightfully demand the opportunity to get their 5th.

It is also obvious this archer has a lot of spellcasting levels; there would be no issue if he had 11 "fighter" type levels. So I am not sure this character can justify and exception. I couldn't really say unless I knew more about his character.
 

Zandy

First Post
Our group has encountered similar situations. Since 3e is relatively new still, and there are times we don't understand a rule, or something new comes out that would fit a character better role-playing wise, we will just back out a level and let the player modify their character.

For example, when S&F came out, one of our monk characters came up with an idea for a PsC. I took his idea, did all the DM stuff, and let him back out a few levels to take a few of the PsC.

We figure we're all still learning. Next time through, we won't be as lenient.
 

Junkheap

First Post
Just let him redo his character to the point of where he is now. i dont see a big deal. I don't see why you should penalize the player. Its the same thing as if he says he doesnt feel like playing this character any more and makes a new one.

It really bothers me with cry baby Dm's that HAVE to go by the rules. Its just a way for a DM to show his control over his players. Btw i am a DM and a player. I let a player change his character is he wants to. He either makes a new character or modifies the old one. No big deal. Players enjoy it more and so do i. It has not affected any of my games and it never will.
 

rushlight

First Post
"Because that's not the type of bonus that Wish can even grant you. Only level gets you that."

That's not true. My PH says, "You may wish for greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. Such a wish gives you the opportunity to fulill your request without fulfilling it compeletly." Then goes on to explain nasty ways for the spell to thwart greedy players. Since the GM controls the spell, he (or she) decides exactly how nasty the spell is. If the player wishes for a level, then the GM could just let the player have the level and all benefits thereof, just because he likes the player (because of bribery with pizza!).

Or he could decide that letting the player get the level would be unfair to everyone else, and decide that since the player said, "I wish I was level 10 instead of level 9" the Wish decided to oblige. The spell did some math and figured out the XP needed to give him the increase in level... and then brought forth a Adult Red Dragon for the PC to fight while surrounded on 6 sides by a Prismatic Wall (so that no other greedy PCs can steal this characters rightfully Wished XP!)

It's all up to the GM. There is literally NOTHING that Wish cannot do, provided the GM allows it. Seeing how the +1 BAB is rather pointless, I'd allow it. Let's face it, Wish gives +1 to Strength, which is the exact same as a +1 BAB for the first 3 attacks. The +1 BAB grants an extra attack however. But lets be honest, if your Epic level Character is fighing against creatures of the same level (and why wouldn't they? Who gets to 21st level only to go beat up CR 1/2 orcs?) and manages to hit an AC of say 42 (which is the AC of a CR 22 creature from the ELH) with a friggen +1 BAB, then he DESERVES the hit. Seriously, the 4th extra attack will be at 15 less than the inital attack, and that's where the balance comes in.

So in short, if the GM doesn't mind you having the extra +1 attack, then there's no reason Wish can't do it. If the GM doesn't want the player to have it, then Wish doesn't work. It depends on how much of a punk the GM wants to be as to if the GM tells the player it won't work BEFORE he casts Wish as opposed to letting the player take the 5000 XP hit and THEN doing something nasty to him. Personally, I don't think a Wish for +1 BAB is really all that hot, and I wouldn't waste 5000 XP on it. I'd Wish for something more useful to an Epic level character like bumping up important stats. If a player wants to blow 5k in XP for an attack that will miss 90% of the time I'd let them, and I'd shake my head in wonder.
 

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