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ways to increase BAB other other than leveling

HEL Pit Fiend

First Post
rushlight said:


1) Yes he can, since Wish allows for ANYTHING (although asking for too much can be dangerous, just like it says in the spell description).


Actually a wish DOES NOT allow for anything, it's power is not infinite. It does allow for anything thats comparable to a 9th level spell or lower (or is it 8th and lower?). There are spells more powerful than wishes, like 10th+ level spells (either epic or lower spells metamagicked up past 9th level). A wish could not duplcate such spells by itself, so there are limits to wish, afterall it's "only" 9th level.

If someone in my campaign "Wish"ed for a +1 BAB and for the corresponding extra attack, I would allow it... but after 24 hours, it would lose it's magical fuel, and BAM, no more +1 BAB...

Now if that player REALLY REALLY wanted that +1 BAB or his character is trash and worthless in his eyes and it would spoil his fun, then, as GM I would wave my hand and voila, theres your +1 BAB (Divine Wish). But remember, all things come at a price, and in the end, I will get my payment...
 
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Its called roleplaying GENIUS! When you chose one option instead of another there are benefits and disadvantages that go with that choice.

Is that so hard to get through your skull? Do mounchkins just not understand common sense?



LordAO said:
How is getting a prestige class "the easy path". So sorry I don't follow your dignified way to character developement. I'd have to work just as hard to develop that character as any other. As a general rule, yes, prestige classes are a little more focused and specialized than normal classes, and thus, more powerful. But there are also a whole lot of requirements, disadvantages, etc that make up for it. Getting prestige classes is anything but the "quick and easy" way to develop a character. Besides, that isn't even relevant. Those classes don't even have to be prestige. Even most combinations of any classes will get screwed by the epic rules, such as the Sorcerer 20/Fighter 20 having a higher base attack than a Fighter 20/Sorcerer 20.
 

jontherev

First Post
I think several posters in this thread need to throw back several chill pills with a tall glass of your favorite liquid. Are differences of opinion over a GAME really worth resorting to insulting each other like this? It just seems really petty to me. No offense to anyone intended, which is why I am not naming names. I've just read a lot of contemptuous posts in this thread, and I think some folks should take more time before they hit that 'submit reply' button. That's all I have to say right now.
 

rushlight

First Post
DocMoriartty said:
Its called roleplaying GENIUS! When you chose one option instead of another there are benefits and disadvantages that go with that choice.

Is that so hard to get through your skull? Do mounchkins just not understand common sense?

First, no GM who values the enjoyment of his players should allow a decision made without full knowledge of the facts to stand firm, with no examination at all.

Second, you should probably get more information on the issue at hand before you attack people.

The decisions made up to this point were made under the assumption that BAB would increase for the next 20 levels as they had for the previous 20. Those rules were changed when the ELH was released. I don't think the player is disappointed with his decisions up to this point - only that his goals cannot now be achieved because of the change in attack calculation. Any GM who says at that point, "Nope, that's tough- sucks to be you" needs to examine why he plays the game. Not every player desire can be filled due to game balance issues, but the request should at least be entertained if just briefly.

Each GM is different, though. While I don't think +1 BAB at 21st level makes much of a difference, another GM might have other plans. It's up to the GM to make those decisions. The person here just wanted to know the effects of increasing BAB by one, and if there was in in-game method to do so (i.e. Wish).

Last, Pit Fiend said, "Actually a wish DOES NOT allow for anything, it's power is not infinite. It does allow for anything that's comparable to a 9th level spell or lower (or is it 8th and lower?). There are spells more powerful than wishes, like 10th+ level spells (either epic or lower spells metamagicked up past 9th level). A wish could not duplcate such spells by itself, so there are limits to wish, afterall it's "only" 9th level."

Actually, the Wish spell lists those effects as specific things Wish can do with no danger, guaranteed. The spell description then goes on to say, "You may wish for greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. Such a wish gives you the opportunity to fulfill your request without fulfilling it completely." So you could in fact Wish for literally ANYTHING. It's just dangerous, and up to the GM what nasty things happen to you, if any. You could Wish to be immortal (which isn't included as a specific power of Wish, but is possible). Of course, most GMs would grant your Wish with a permanent Stasis or perhaps an Imprisonment, and voila! you will "live" forever. You could also Wish to have blue skin, which most GMs would just allow to happen (since usually being blue is it's own punishment). In the end it's the player's 5000 XP, and they can Wish for anything. It's the GMs job to decide if the Wish is balanced within the game, and if it's possible in his world.
 

doktorstick

First Post
rushlight said:
The decisions made up to this point were made under the assumption that BAB would increase for the next 20 levels as they had for the previous 20. Those rules were changed when the ELH was released. I don't think the player is disappointed with his decisions up to this point - only that his goals cannot now be achieved because of the change in attack calculation. Any GM who says at that point, "Nope, that's tough- sucks to be you" needs to examine why he plays the game. Not every player desire can be filled due to game balance issues, but the request should at least be entertained if just briefly.
And if the player thought that iterative attacks would increase into the epic levels? Would you allow that as well? ("Hey! I didn't know that I couldn't get +40/+35/+30/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5! My whole character concept is ruined!") At some point, the DM is going to have to cut-off the player's wants/expectations. Several of us think that this should be as per the rules, regardless of the wants or desires of the players.

/ds
 

mikebr99

Explorer
The only problem I see with giving a character the extra attack at 21st level where one normally wouldn't be, is that every odd level after (and including) 21st, the epic character gains a +1 epic bonus to attack... which may (with magic) make this last attack become effective, and thereby put the character in the realm of pure fighters when he has multiclassed out of that profession.
 

rushlight

First Post
doktorstick said:
And if the player thought that iterative attacks would increase into the epic levels? Would you allow that as well? ("Hey! I didn't know that I couldn't get +40/+35/+30/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5! My whole character concept is ruined!") At some point, the DM is going to have to cut-off the player's wants/expectations. Several of us think that this should be as per the rules, regardless of the wants or desires of the players.

/ds

I wouldn't allow one person to have 7 attacks when everyone else is stuck with 4. I agree that not every player desire can be achieved because of balance, but all the GM need do is entertain the idea. Player A suggests getting 7 attacks, and the GM says, "Well, that would be nice, but none of the other players get that, and the monsters don't either so that would screw things up. Sorry!" A bit of courtesy can be nice, even if the player gets wacky.

"The only problem I see with giving a character the extra attack at 21st level where one normally wouldn't be, is that every odd level after (and including) 21st, the epic character gains a +1 epic bonus to attack... which may (with magic) make this last attack become effective, and thereby put the character in the realm of pure fighters when he has multiclassed out of that profession."

That seems logical at first, but consider that along with every 2 levels in which the player gets a bonus to attack, the monsters they are fighting also get more power and AC and magic. See my example below for comparisons for a 4th attack at 21st level and again at 41st level. In both cases, the 4th iterative attack garners at best a 5% chance if even that. You could continue this into triple digit levels, but for every increase in power the players get the baddies should get the exact same.
 

kreynolds

First Post
rushlight said:
all the GM need do is entertain the idea.

This is the part that you just don't get. As a DM(GM, whatever), I entertained the idea. I thought it was rediculous. So the answer is no. So, I guess I did my part, performed my duties. :D
 

jontherev

First Post
I think the real issue here is that a new book came out with new rules. In our campaign, our DM allowed us to alter/tweak our characters when the splatbooks came out. I see this as the same type of thing. Allowing someone to change their character a little shouldn't effect the game much, and will make for a happier player in many instances. This is different than asking for more BAB at 21st level. He's actually asking to go back in time and re-plan his pc. I know that's odd and totally done out of game, but this is a special circumstance. It does not tear apart the fabric of reality to allow your players to alter their pc's under conditions like this. I'm not talking about a total change, but rather a few changes based upon any new rules that were added. Once all the books are out, this is not necessary.

Sometimes, it is to the detriment of one's pc. Take all of us poor, poor rogues :D who took Expert Tactician at like 3rd level when Sword and Fist came out. Just as Song and Silence came out, I was ecstatic because I had just turned 9th level. As I salivated over the different feats available, I was shattered when I noticed that my feat had already been chosen for me...Combat Reflexes, which was the newly added prerequisite for ET. I never would have taken that feat otherwise, but I have since left that disappointment behind me. Over 3 levels, I have yet to use this feat. Unless I change my concept (specializes in daggers) and start using a kusari-gama (he's a halfling), I don't plan on getting much use out of the feat EVER. BUT, it's worth it for ET.:D

So, whether it is for the good or bad of the pc, I think it's perfectly ok to allow a player to make a change or two when new books come out. This entire thread would not have happened if the ELH was out a year ago. YMMV.
 

apsuman

First Post
Ok, I still want to know what levels in what classes this guy has...

I think that to answer to core question, No. There is no way in the rules as printed to allow for an additional BAB.

I do not like the idea of using a wish as I think this should be outside the power of a wish.

Ifyou refer to myths, the heroes and villians in those stories were epic, but there were still those that were better fighters or warriors or whatever than each other. Just because a character only gets 3 iteratvie attacks does not mean that they would not be able to fulfill a vision of a character, or that they are especially handicapped against other PCs.

If it is that important to you I would suggest the following as possible solutions:

Calculate his BAB using fractional BAB, a wizard gets .5 BAB every level, see if adding his BAB this way gets you to the extra +1.

A feat (I think feats are bigger than wishes) that allows users to reach their next iterative attack 1 BAB less than required. This feels good to me it lets level five fighters and level seven rogues/clerics/warriors get that extra attack one level sooner. Still cap it at 4 attacks. This way his BAB would be +15/+10/+5/+0. Also I like this idea because he has to give up something rather than having a gift handed to him.


g!
 

apsuman

First Post
Ok, I will take the absolute silence since my last post as a sign that everyone in this thread agrees with me.

In short your silence speaks volumes about how much genius there is in my proposed solutions (I especially like the feat).

So, thank you all for affirming my self image.

:)
 
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kreynolds

First Post
apsuman said:
Ok, I will take the absolute silence since my last post as a sign that everyone in this thread agrees with me.

I agree with part of it. There's no way to get an increase in your BAB except by leveling. I still wouldn't give it to him. To me, this is a non-issue.
 

Zerovoid

First Post
There seem to be alot of real uptight DM's posting to this thread. I say, just allow the player to retroactively switch his levels in wizard and ranger, once he takes his 21st level as a wizard. I really hate when things are dependant on the order that class levels were taken, but when I brought this up once before in a different context, most people seemed to think it was a feature, and not a bug.

The fact is, there have been new rules released, rules that would have affected the player's decisions had he known about them earlier. Rather than punishing him for working his character all the way up from level 1 to 20 organically, instead of just creating a new 20th level character, you should allow him to change his character, as long as the altered character is also possible within the rules, and doesn't violate continuity.

Changing the order that a character took classes does not in my mind violate the continuity of the game world, or break suspension of disbelief.
 

Akunin

First Post
doktorstick said:
That is a poor example... The reason is that character progressing as either one of the primary classes will be developed towards that class.

/ds

You must have missed the line about "Assuming identical stats, feats, skills, spells and equipment, who wins?".
 

doktorstick

First Post
Akunin said:
You must have missed the line about "Assuming identical stats, feats, skills, spells and equipment, who wins?".

Actually, I didn't. Unless 40th-level characters are being born from the heads of gods, it makes a difference. Background. Roleplaying.

/ds
 

doktorstick

First Post
Be more imaginative. tenser's transformation has one component that adds BAB. It does a lot of other things, too. The downside is that you can not cast spells.

Why not create a spell that grants only BABs and allows you to cast spells. Put that into an item and get your +10 BAB to gain your extra attacks.

Think outside the box in solving problems. Don't whine and complain about the rules.

/ds
 

Crothian

First Post
I can't believe this is still going on. Part of this game is about choices. He choose to do spellcasting first so he's BAB suffered. However, he has a better will save becasue of it and in those adventures he got to cast spells.

Next we are going to be hearing about someone who is playing a Sorcerer Barbarian. THey were sorcerer first, then went to barbarian. He rolled terrible on his barbarian HP (a 1) so only has 9 HP (4 from sorcer, 1 from barbarian, and +2 twice from his 14 con). THe character dies becasue of it's low HP, but the PC complains "If I would have taken Barbarian first I'd have 12+1d4+4 HP and I'd be alive".

Learn to live with your choices instead of complaining about it.
 

LordAO

First Post
DocMoriartty said:
Its called roleplaying GENIUS! When you chose one option instead of another there are benefits and disadvantages that go with that choice.

Is that so hard to get through your skull? Do mounchkins just not understand common sense?

Excuse me?

What you can't seem to get through your skull is that I understand the system perfectly. I'm not at all worried about myself. I can min/max just fine. I'm arguing for the sake of people like you who obviously don't understand the system well enough to know a good rule from a bad one. Munchkin you say? Do you think I dislike this way of doing it because it makes me less munchkin? I can make as much of a munchkin character as I want with any system of doing things. But I don't. I'm not the type who gets a thrill out of making those kinds of characters. What I don't understand is why people like you have to get insulting any time someone brings up a point of view other than your own. I have said nothing that would allow you to make the audacious assumption that I'm "munchkin." People like you, rather than express valid opinions and objective reasoning (which you are obviously incapable of) can do nothing else but call people "muchkin." How pathetic! If you have nothing else to add to this thread other than slander, don't bother posting.
 

kreynolds

First Post
LordAO. The real problem here is that this entire thread no longer belongs on the rules board. The question was "can you?". The answer is "no". Any other options, decisions, trains of thought, etc, belong in the house rules thread. The simple fact that the thread continues to exhist here is the primary cause of all the backlash. On the house rules thread, there is a lot more open mindedness, simply because that is where you change the rules. You don't change the rules here. A quick proposal of how someone handles a rule differently, or an interpretation of a rule, is fine, but anything prolonged will get beaten to death so long as the thread exhists here.

The bottom line is this. There is no way to increase your BAB except by leveling. If anyone wants to compare the Wish spell with a small +1 BAB increase, simply look at the Epic Prowess feat, an Epic feat mind you, and you'll know that a +1 BAB increase is far outside the power of Wish.

If anyone wants to "fix" this so-called "broken" rule (actually, this thread isn't about "fixing" a rule, but it's about altering the core system), do so on the house rules board. That's what it's there for.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
 
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