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ways to increase BAB other other than leveling

rushlight

First Post
"The question was "can you?". The answer is "no"."

YOUR answer was "no". There are other interpretations available.

"...anyone wants to compare the Wish spell with a small +1 BAB increase, simply look at the Epic Prowess feat, an Epic feat mind you, and you'll know that a +1 BAB increase is far outside the power of Wish."

That is obviously false to anyone who has actually read the entire description of the Wish spell. No one yet has managed to comment on the fact that the spell spcifically allows for effects greater than those named, although with danger. You could quite legally Wish to be God, Wish to be the sole person left alive on the entire planet, or Wish to have the entire universe destroyed by a purple rodent. Of course, all of those Wishes would result in failure, usually with dire results to the caster, because they outright unbalance or destroy the game.

With a sympathetic GM who understands that not every player can make decisions based on books that haven't been written yet might allow a Wish for a +1 BAB to keep player enjoyment high. Especially since not a single person here can show how +1 BAB is unbalancing in the least.

So far, I've put forth rules and evidence that would support Wish doing this, and more proof that +1 BAB makes little relevance to an Epic level game. All the detractors have put forth is, "NO! You can't do that because it isn't specifically spelled out in the rules and you can't do something that isn't spelled out specifically!", or "That would require make(ing) my job too difficult, thus taking away any fun I have...", or just insults for not knowing that Epic levels would work this way and you should have obviously planned ahead.

Of course, the second quote is from someone here, in this thread. The others apparently called Ms Cleo and got the info on the ELH long before it's release and thus didn't need to do any adjusting.

Let's be fair, some of you don't think a player should be allowed to do something like this. That's fine, not everyone agrees. But the insults and derision is a bit thick from the "no" camp. One might draw conclusions on that, but that would be conjecture. So instead of insulting the original questioner, just state that you wouldn't allow a player to do this, and perhaps why. But please don't say "Wish can't do that" unless you can show that your copy of the Wish spell stops with the specific effects of Wish. Perhaps you might postulate that you wouldn't ALLOW Wish to do this, which is perfectly legal. But some of us WOULD allow Wish to do this which is also perfectly legal.
 
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kreynolds

First Post
rushlight said:
"YOUR answer was "no".

That's because the rules say "no".

rushlight said:
"The question was "can you?". The answer is "no"."

That is obviously false to anyone who has actually read the entire description of the Wish spell.

I disagree. See below for more info.

rushlight said:
No one yet has managed to comment on the fact that the spell spcifically allows for effects greater than those named, although with danger. You could quite legally Wish to be God, Wish to be the sole person left alive on the entire planet, or Wish to have the entire universe destroyed by a purple rodent. Of course, all of those Wishes would result in failure, usually with dire results to the caster, because they outright unbalance or destroy the game.

You know, a failed wish is a failed wish. Either you get it or you don't. If you wished yourself out of a dungeon, and that's all you said, not being specific, you may very well end up in another dungeon, because there are limitless answers to your wish. In the case of a +1 BAB, you're being very specific. Failure is failure. Besides, my argument is that it's far enough beyond the reach of the power of wish, that it will fail every time you try it.

rushlight said:
Especially since not a single person here can show how +1 BAB is unbalancing in the least.

Funny, I thought I did that. *shrug*

rushlight said:
So far, I've put forth rules and evidence that would support Wish doing this, and more proof that +1 BAB makes little relevance to an Epic level game.

ROTFLMAO Woho! Ohh, that's rich!!! LOL

rushlight said:
All the detractors have put forth is, "NO! You can't do that because it isn't specifically spelled out in the rules and you can't do something that isn't spelled out specifically!",

Actually, I put forth my argument that Epic Prowess is far outside the power of Wish, but you didn't get it. Oh well.

rushlight said:
"That would require make(ing) my job too difficult, thus taking away any fun I have...", or just insults for not knowing that Epic levels would work this way and you should have obviously planned ahead.

Of course, the second quote is from someone here, in this thread.

First, that quote is from one of my posts. You're taking it way out of context. Snipped on it's own like that, it has no meaning at all. Obviously, you don't have a clue as to why I posted that and what it means.

Secondly, learn to...
...properly. Thanks.

rushlight said:
The others apparently called Ms Cleo and got the info on the ELH long before it's release and thus didn't need to do any adjusting.

Heh. I didn't use my Epic Prowess argument until after the ELH hit the streets. Nice try, but try again.

rushlight said:
Let's be fair, some of you don't think a player should be allowed to do something like this.

You're finally catching on.

rushlight said:
But the insults and derision is a bit thick from the "no" camp.

Maybe, but I don't know. See previous post.

rushlight said:
But please don't say "Wish can't do that" unless you can show that your copy of the Wish spell stops with the specific effects of Wish.

I already demonstrated my opinion as to why a +1 BAB increase is outside the power of wish.

rushlight said:
Perhaps you might postulate that you wouldn't ALLOW Wish to do this, which is perfectly legal.

Yup. Wish is a rule-breaker, and it's meant to be that way. This is just one rule that is far outside the power of wish.

rushlight said:
But some of us WOULD allow Wish to do this which is also perfectly legal.

Tell you what. If you, in character, can show me, the DM, how you can conceptualize and envision a +1 increase in your BAB, I might think about it. If you can do that without your wish sounding like crap, if you can do that without any metagame knowledge, if you can do that completely in character and in role-play, I might think about it.

Come to think of it, if you wish for a +1 BAB, you are doing so for the sole purpose of gaining an extra attack, and one of the possible results from wish could be that you suddenly, and quite permanently, lose a level. There. Now you can earn XP and level again, only this time, I would strongly suggest that you take a level in something that will bump up your BAB high enough. If one level drain isn't enough, two might do it as well.

So there ya' go. A +1 BAB increase for the purpose of gaining another attack via level/multiple level loss so that you may re-level your character in the proper way so as to gain your extra attack. And Wish did it.

See? I'm willing to work with ya.
 
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AvarielAvenger

First Post
If multiclassed characters, or Clerics and Wizards can Wish to gain a point of BAB, then I'd say Fighter types should be able to Wish to gain levels of spellcasting. It's the same thing, after all. You're giving inherent bonuses of taking a level in a class through a magic spell.

You know, this thread is really pointless now. Like Kreynolds says, by the rules in the ELH, you cannot do what you want to do. By the rules, a Wish cannot give a point of BAB. You can change that in your game if you want, but realize it is a house rule.
 

rushlight

First Post
"By the rules, a Wish cannot give a point of BAB. You can change that in your game if you want, but realize it is a house rule."

That is what I don't understand. The Wish spell SAYS that you can Wish for greater effects, and that it just might be dangerous. It's up to the GM in question to decide what will be dangerous, what won't, and what exactly a Wish can do. It's not a house rule, it's a game rule.

To be perfectly honest it really doesn't matter to me if you get this point, so I agree this thread is becoming pointless. Some of you fail to understand exactly what Wish can do, but there's really not much more I can do about that except tell you to reread the spell. Sure, different GMs will allow it to do different things. But no matter what happens it's still within the bounds of Wish. Again, I could Wish that the entire universe was swamped in whip cream, and if the GM thought that might be funny or possible it would happen. That's not a house rule, that's a game rule. Wish can do "greater effects than these" and "it MIGHT be dangerous". Well, swamping the universe in whip cream qualifies as a "greater effect" and it obviously was dangerous, since we'd all drown. Perfectly legal. As for causing the character to lose levels, that's perfectly legal too. After all, the +1 BAB is a "greater effect" and it can be "dangerous". If that's the way you wanna handle that, then go for it.

As for +1 BAB being unbalanced, would you mind explaining how gaining an attack that will miss 95% (or more) of the time when fighting balanced CR monsters is unbalanced? Apparently I missed that point. Maybe you roll more natural 20s that usual or something...

Oh, and I'll quote how I like. If you are down to attacking my posting style (or perhaps you'll start with grammer and spelling next) then I suppose we should just end this. If you've got no more specific points related to the conversation, just say so.
 

Xeriar

First Post
If you wish for a point of BAB, I would rule that two of your wizard levels would switch to fighter levels, with no bonus feats.

Since I go by the 'use your best 20 levels' rule, it would be uneccesary anyway.
 

doktorstick

First Post
rushlight said:
"As for +1 BAB being unbalanced, would you mind explaining how gaining an attack that will miss 95% (or more) of the time when fighting balanced CR monsters is unbalanced? Apparently I missed that point. Maybe you roll more natural 20s that usual or something...
This point was covered already. That fourth attack at +1 (without bonuses) may not matter now. But in 20 levels, that extra attack will be +21 (without bonuses). If it isn't such a big deal, then why fuss about it? Create a new spell that grants BABs and put it in a continuous item. Problem solved. That is within the scope of the rules.

/ds
 
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rushlight

First Post
"This point was covered already. That fourth attack at +1 (without bonuses) may not matter now. But in 20 levels, that extra attack will be +21 (without bonuses). "

This is true. But had you actually read my reply to this point, you would have seen:

"Well, let's examine that. Say our guy gets his +1 BAB and advances to level 41 (20 levels from now). I don't know the detals of character so I'll make some reasonable assumptions. He probably had a dex of around 22 at 21st level. Assume he increased his dex at every chance (every other epic level I believe). That gives him a bonus of +11. He's probably got a +5 (it might go higher in the ELH, I'm not sure). Let's not forget his "Epic bonus" to hit of +10. Let's see, that's +1 BAB (the gimme), +11 dex, +10 Epic bonus, and +5 weapon. Let's give him a +20 "circumstance" bonus to cover whatever else might be going on. That's a final attack bonus of +47 to attack, assuming my public school math holds up. Alright, that's alot. Let's see what that can do. Looking through the ELH I found a monster comparably even to a 41st level party: the Mature Adult Prismatic Dragon with a CR of 43. A few higher but close enough. It has an AC of 71! That means our massive attack of +47 still needs a roll of 20 to even have a chance! (Assuming of course that you play natural 20 always hits. If you don't then you still missed, having only an attack of 67...) "

So you can see that the argument that in 20 more levels it makes a difference. It doesn't, because while you gain 20 levels of more power, the monsters you should be fighting have also gained 20 levels or more of power. And thus your 4th iterative attack will still miss 95% of the time, or more. The argument that gaining levels will allow the +1 to become relevant is spurious logic, and false. When your guy is 180th level, and has a 4th attack of +81 or so, the monsters you'll be fighting will probably have an AC of 120 or so... That's because the scaling of the CRs works very well. Reguardless of your level, the first attack is your most powerful. Those attacks that follow become less and less useful, until your last attack is almost asured to miss.

"If it isn't such a big deal, then why fuss about it? "

Good question. :) To tell the truth, I would never do this, and as a GM I would point out that it makes almost no difference at all to the game, and thus not worth 5000 XP. Players don't always do what makes sense though, and really a GM should usually try to accomodate his players if it doesn't affect game balance. This is just personal opinion, but I don't think a GM should shoot down an idea just because it causes them more work or makes things different that the exact letter of the book. Sometimes it's OK to just toss out the books and oblige a player. Especially when doing so makes no difference to the game.


Oh, and I forgot to give an example as to how to word the Wish.

As long as I didn't have a GM who was just going to hose me because I was making a Wish that wasn't on the approved list I'd word it this way:

I Wish I my innate ability to fight was better so that I would be good enough to get more strikes in during combat.

Now, sure you could say that this gives you some sort of additional bonus to attack as opposed to BAB, but BAB is the only "innate" attacking ability which doesn't change with weapon, circumstance, or method of attack (ranged vs melee).

Besides, you COULD just reward the Wish "I Wish I was smarter!" with an extra spell point as opposed to the +1 to INT. Obviously the INT bonus is the one sought, just like the BAB bonus is the one sought in tthe previous Wish.
 

doktorstick

First Post
rushlight said:
This is true. But had you actually read my reply to this point, you would have seen:
I did recall that as I was typing, but was already committed to posting. :) I'm not sure that characters in Epic Level campaigns will, in the majority of the time, be fighting equally powerful creatures. In the admittedly few high-level campaigns I have been involved in, there was the occassional uber-powerful creature or mastermind, but most of the time we were overcoming horrid traps, fighting at severe disadvantages, or mobs of lower-level villians. The encounters still ranged from moderate-to-difficult, but that 4th attack would be worth a lot more in the campaigns I have participated in.

/ds
 

jontherev

First Post
I have yet to see anyone reply to myself and several other posters who have asked how in the world one could word a wish without metagaming in order to gain a bab +1. Consider that a challenge.:D Wishing for 1 more attack would not do it, as that would be metagaming...so you just happened to wish this when your bab was only 1 away from another attack? How in the world would your pc know this? Yeah right. More likely, you would receive a monk's belt or boots of speed...or a mean dm might haste you for a limited time period and then take it away for good.

Now, if you actually wished for a +1 bab, then you just wasted 5k exp, as your god has no idea what you just wished for. Either that, or he might give you a +1 wisdom or intelligence so that you make more sense next time...if you are lucky.

Sorry, but I don't see anyway to do this in-game without metagaming. Therefore, you cannot wish for a +1 bab. As kreynolds said (paraphrased due to laziness), convince us that you can do this w/o metagaming, and then we will talk about this possibility more.

However, if you have a dm and a group who just plays for fun and doesn't make roleplaying a high priority (which is fine, if that's what you like...I'm not telling anyone how to play the GAME), then sure, you could wish for a +1 bab.

As I said before, in this situation, just let the player rewrite his pc based upon the new rules. I don't what the big problem is. But when all the books are out, no more changing stuff around. As long as the changes are approved by the DM, it's all good right?
 

rushlight

First Post
"I have yet to see anyone reply to myself and several other posters who have asked how in the world one could word a wish without metagaming in order to gain a bab +1."

Then you apparently didn't read my last post. It read:

"As long as I didn't have a GM who was just going to hose me because I was making a Wish that wasn't on the approved list I'd word it this way:

I Wish I my innate ability to fight was better so that I would be good enough to get more strikes in during combat.

Now, sure you could say that this gives you some sort of additional bonus to attack as opposed to BAB, but BAB is the only "innate" attacking ability which doesn't change with weapon, circumstance, or method of attack (ranged vs melee).

Besides, you COULD just reward the Wish "I Wish I was smarter!" with an extra skill point as opposed to the +1 to INT. Obviously the INT bonus is the one sought, just like the BAB bonus is the one sought in tthe previous Wish."

I think that would cover it right nicely.

Doc posted: "In the admittedly few high-level campaigns I have been involved in, there was the occassional uber-powerful creature or mastermind, but most of the time we were overcoming horrid traps, fighting at severe disadvantages, or mobs of lower-level villians. "

Were I the GM of that game I probably would agree with you. Every GM is responsible for maintaining game balance and keeping fun high. Not every solution is right for every game.

I guess the reason I keep coming back to this thread is because I believe that the Wish solution is POSSIBLE (legally speaking) but not necessarily appropriate to every game. This differs from the others who insist it's a house rule or not legal under the rules. They haven't apparently actually read the spell, but yet the feel the need to criticize others for their game decisions. So I had to address that.
 

Gromm

First Post
Crothian said:
It is his game, and he is free to do what he likes. However, he choose to ask for other people's opinions. Unless you use rule zero, BAB can not be increased. However, if rule zero is assumed to always be used it makes this forum useless.


Aint that the F-ing truth. I often wonder why some people (not neccessarily this thread), ask questions of rules. Once they hear the answer they raise a stink and say its not fair and yadda-yadda- yadda and then Rule 0 it. So why even ask in the first place if you had your heart set on chaging the rules to what you wanted them to be? The point of this forum is to ask how the rules work, not to bitch and moan when the rules don't work the way you want them too.

As far as the whole insult issue, I've been reading. Its Kreynolds.... I mean comon. If you take him personally you'll probably end up jumping off the Brooklyn bridge or something. Its just the way he is, don't take it to heart just get used to it (I don't know how many times hes insulted me now).

The simplest solution is to allow the Wish to drop him a level in one of his existing classes (seems well within the power of wish to use it to screw yourself over). If he wants the fricken BAB THAT badly, then by all means shoot yourself in the foot for the thing. If not then tuff tittie and move on with your life, if you really wanted to be super archer you'd make a pure fighter. Multiclassing is great and all, but to be the best swordsman, archer, axe thrower, or whatever you go with fighter. Kinda like if you want to be a master spell caster you go straight Sor or Wiz, just the way it works. Arcane archers are neat and all, but near as I can figure it should have been pretty easy to get enough BAB for that extra attack if you wanted it that badly.

Oh and for those who haven't figured it out... Wish DOES have a limit on its power. You can't wish yourself to become say a god, no matter how "well worded" it is. This came up before in some other issue a while back where someone tried to be smart and wish for something beyond Wish's power. Its a 9th level spell, but you can't use it to say cast Energy Drain. Why? Because it can't replicate 9th level spells. I don't care if it costs XP or not, it can't do it. Says so right in the book. You can wish to do all kinds of things outside of the range of wish, if you word it poorly you'll probably die. If you word it perfectly, nothing will happen.

Lets look at the possible wording of this wish anyway:
"I wish I had another point of BAB" ummm no.
"I wish I had taken a fighter level instead of a mage level" Nope.
"I wish I had spent more time training in martial combat instead of wizardly arts." Hey good idea, but unfortunately wish can't alter time last I looked so its beyond the ability of Wish- granted it could probably make you lose a wizard level but even wording that would be pretty rough.

So just kill him and help the guy out.
 
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Numion

First Post
Wouldn't it be easiest to just give him the extra attack without worrying too much about the BAB? That shouldn't ruin out the game for anyone, and is an easy fix.
 

HEL Pit Fiend

First Post
rushlight said:

"Well, let's examine that. Say our guy gets his +1 BAB and advances to level 41 (20 levels from now). I don't know the detals of character so I'll make some reasonable assumptions. He probably had a dex of around 22 at 21st level. Assume he increased his dex at every chance (every other epic level I believe). That gives him a bonus of +11. He's probably got a +5 (it might go higher in the ELH, I'm not sure). Let's not forget his "Epic bonus" to hit of +10. Let's see, that's +1 BAB (the gimme), +11 dex, +10 Epic bonus, and +5 weapon. Let's give him a +20 "circumstance" bonus to cover whatever else might be going on. That's a final attack bonus of +47 to attack, assuming my public school math holds up. Alright, that's alot. Let's see what that can do. Looking through the ELH I found a monster comparably even to a 41st level party: the Mature Adult Prismatic Dragon with a CR of 43. A few higher but close enough. It has an AC of 71! That means our massive attack of +47 still needs a roll of 20 to even have a chance! (Assuming of course that you play natural 20 always hits. If you don't then you still missed, having only an attack of 67...) "


Ahh, nope, the guy is an arcane archer, they are VERY DEADLY, It's gonna look more like this:

From 21st level, last attack at.................................... +1
Gain levels to 41st.................................................... +10
Dex 44 (22, +12 gloves, +5 inherent, +5 level advance).. +17
Weapon Focus........................................................... +1
Epic Weapon Focus.................................................... +2
Epic Prowess x5 (anywhere from 3 to 7 if he's smart) .... +5
Bow +10................................................................... +10
and last but not least
Enchant Arrow (class ability, 31st level Arcane Archer)... +16

By the way, the magic items I used add up to 4.2 million gold, he has over 14 million total to work with, I'm sure he could come up with some other epic items giving insight or divine bonuses too....

Let's add it up
1+10+17+1+2+5+10+16 = +62

Against AC 71, thats a 60% chance to-hit with that last attack. And what is that dragon's younger brother gonna do when he finds out your group just killed his older brother. Adult prismatic dragon, CR 39, AC 64..... *THOINK* *THOINK* *THOINK* *THOINK*, 4 well placed arrows up that dragon's arse....

I guess that last attack IS important afterall......
 
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Will

First Post
Let's see, magic that affects BAB...

Tenser's Transformation (+1 BAB per 2 caster levels, among other things, which can grant extra attacks)
Divine Power (BAB as that of a fighter of your total level)

So there are at least in game things you can point to and say 'I want something like that'.

It's not hard to imagine a Wish phrased as 'I want to be better in combat'.

Consider +1 Strength. It grants something like +.5 melee attacks (0 or 1, depending), and +1 damage.
+1 BAB grants +1 on melee and ranged, and an extra attack. A little more powerful... maybe require two wishes, or some extra 'oomph'.

As for changing classes, given that magic already can play with class effects (Two spells mentioned above, frex), it wouldn't be hard to imagine requesting 'I wish I was more knowledgeable in military arts than magical arts', or even 'I wish I had the benefit of a year of combat training rather than the year I spent studying magic.'

Sum 'balance' effect: Loss of 5k XP for being effectively the same rough power of character.

That _really_ seems like a nonissue to me. 5k is a lot to pay to rearrange a character.

As for justification... the game mechanics are there to serve the game. If I go into a game expecting one thing and getting another, I think adjusting things are warranted.

If I want a quick and nimble forest fighter and went with ranger, maybe I discover down the road that it's _nothing_ like I wanted. I could either throw out my concept and rework it around the character, get rid of the character and bring in a new one, or rewrite the character as, perhaps, a Rog/Ftr.

Again, other than letting the game progress smoothly, I don't see the problem. I mean, if the game is resting on the fact the character is a ranger, changing the class would screw things up. OTOH, I imagine that if the player was startled or dismayed by how rangers feel in 3e, the DM has failed to communicate what's going on.

-=Will
 

jontherev

First Post
rushlight said:
"I have yet to see anyone reply to myself and several other posters who have asked how in the world one could word a wish without metagaming in order to gain a bab +1."

Then you apparently didn't read my last post. It read:

"As long as I didn't have a GM who was just going to hose me because I was making a Wish that wasn't on the approved list I'd word it this way:

I Wish I my innate ability to fight was better so that I would be good enough to get more strikes in during combat.

Now, sure you could say that this gives you some sort of additional bonus to attack as opposed to BAB, but BAB is the only "innate" attacking ability which doesn't change with weapon, circumstance, or method of attack (ranged vs melee).

Besides, you COULD just reward the Wish "I Wish I was smarter!" with an extra skill point as opposed to the +1 to INT. Obviously the INT bonus is the one sought, just like the BAB bonus is the one sought in tthe previous Wish."

I think that would cover it right nicely.
Actually, yes, I missed your last post, amidst the flames in this thread. But now that I read it, it wouldn't have changed my post. BAB is definitely NOT an innate bonus. BAB comes from the training from your class. If it was innate, then some wizards would get the bab as a fighter, simply because they were "born" with an innate fighting ability.

Also, I am rather lenient when it comes to wish, so please don't lump me into some category as a DM trying to hose you. I would allow wishing for feats, as long as you have the prereq., it makes sense for your pc, AND you word it somewhat well. The fact is, I simply disagree with you.

Your last point is lost on me. 3E defines that INT increases your skill points, I'll give you that. But personally, I would not screw over a player like this, by being sly and telling him he suddenly knows how to decipher scripts slightly better...but over all he doesn't feel any smarter. I'm not that strict. I just think wishing for bab smells like metagaming. So far, no one has even come close to changing my mind on that issue.

As for your wish above, I would probably give you a +1 unnamed or insight bonus to all attacks. After all, the more often you hit, the more strikes you get in. Quite fair I think, considering Weapon Focus only gives +1 to attack with ONE weapon. However, I'd probably do something to balance this out, like alter your skin color or something humourous like that.
 

kreynolds

First Post
rushlight said:
As for +1 BAB being unbalanced, would you mind explaining how gaining an attack that will miss 95% (or more) of the time when fighting balanced CR monsters is unbalanced? Apparently I missed that point. Maybe you roll more natural 20s that usual or something...

Tell you what. If you wanna whip up a chart that details a cheaper cost for purchasing a feat based on how crappy your BAB is, go for it. That's basically what you wanna do, and it's a bad idea. Look at it like this:

If your BAB is +9/+4, then yeah, an additional +1 technically isn't a big deal, right? After all, if would only net you +10/+5, which is still only two attacks. However, if your BAB is already +10/+5, well now, an additional +1 is a much bigger deal, as it nets you +11/+6/+1. Three attacks for the same cost. Now, you get yet another +1 increase, and that will net you +12/+7/+2. Technically, not a big deal, right? Wrong. With each increase, every single one of your attacks is improved upon. Oh sure, your last crappy +2 attack is still crappy, even if increased again, but even if you have three attacks per round, and your last attack is only at +2, then the cost should be low. However, that +1 BAB increase doesn't just increase your last attack. It increases your primary as well, which is now +13.

Your argument of a small cost for a small increase doesn't sit well with me, primarly because the benefit of the +1 increase, though pretty small on the low end (last attack), it's really damn good on the high end (first attack). Remember, your fast attack is what's important. That's the one that counts. That's the one that makes the difference. The rest are just icing on the cake. But the power of an increase in your BAB isn't about getting that extra attack, or even improving you last attack. That increase is all about improving your first attack, so that your chances of missing are almost nil.

rushlight said:
Oh, and I'll quote how I like. If you are down to attacking my posting style (or perhaps you'll start with grammer and spelling next) then I suppose we should just end this.

First of all, I likely won't poke you about your grammer or spelling because I often make those mistakes myself. When I do poke someone about it, which I haven't with you, it's in jest, and obviously so. When I'm serious, it's because somebody's post was about as readable as a preschooler's.

Secondly, I wasn't attacking your posting style. I was just pointing out that your posting style is irritating as hell to read. The system is there to help make your posts readable. I was just hoping that you would use it. It really does make it easier to read.

rushlight said:
If you've got no more specific points related to the conversation, just say so.

I believe I just added to the conversation, and did so in my previous post as well. Disappointed?
 
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apsuman

First Post
Against better judgement, I am going to post again.

First, "The question can you increase your BAB?"

I believe the answer is no. I believe that wishes are powerful and can do more than listed in the description. I believe this would be beyond the power of a wish. Further I belive that most other players are on this side with me (although I am wrong a lot).

Also, if adding it is not really going to amke that much of a difference, then not adding it should also not make that much of a difference. Those in favor of allowing a wish (or something) to accomplish this are advocating a large and significant change to the system, the burden is on them to advance their case, not for use (on the other side) to copitulate.

Adding +1 to BAB is big, not only does it give you extra attacks, it makes the existing attacks better. So that +1 misses 95% of the time, the first second, and third all hit 5% more of the time. Also, even if at level 41 a +67 misses 95% of the time, you can have a wicked empowered cats grace offering you a +30 to your DEX for an additonal +15 to hit and you still eft out other epic bonuses available.

The fact that protagonists are still posting means they are still trying to get some type of approval from the members of this board. Give it up use rule zero -- we will never know.

I am not trying to be the great compromiser, but I offered two solutions and nobody flamed me and nobody thanked me, basically I thought they were ignored.

First[\B] calculate BAB fractionally, while not in the rules, I think this is the least offensive way to achieve your ends. It also might not work.

Second[\B], I offered a feat that allows characters to gain the extra attack one having one less BAB than required. I like this as it requires the character to spend a feat and does not essentially punish every other character by not giving them something.

g!
 

kreynolds

First Post
apsuman said:
I am not trying to be the great compromiser, but I offered two solutions and nobody flamed me and nobody thanked me, basically I thought they were ignored.

I didn't ignore your suggestions. No offense, but I just didn't find them appealing. I figured, why tell you that I don't like them if I don't also offer a way to make them better. Makes sense, right? :)

The first one might work though. I'm just not all fired up to find out.
 
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