ways to increase BAB other other than leveling

[Xeriar]

I think for those who aren't just continuing the progression, using the best combo of 20 levels for saves and attacks.

I see a lot of incisive, hypocritical comments here. I'm not sure if its intentional, but it certainly -seems- like it. People are complaining, it is a valid balance issue, therefore it is a problem.

The solutions are easy, I don't see what the issue is or why so much -hate- exists over the issue. Some people here are getting elitist - I sure hope they never try to bring people into the hobby (thus risking them avoiding it forever).

 

[kreynolds]

I see a lot of incisive, hypocritical comments here. I'm not sure if its intentional, but it certainly -seems- like it.

This was probably meant for me, and rightly so. My comments might have been harsh, but they were honest.

People are complaining, it is a valid balance issue, therefore it is a problem.

The mere act of complaining does not a balance issue make. I don't see the problem at all.

The solutions are easy, I don't see what the issue is or why so much -hate- exists over the issue. Some people here are getting elitist - I sure hope they never try to bring people into the hobby (thus risking them avoiding it forever).

I don't see what the issue is either. So you don't get an additional +1, big deal. So you don't get an extra attack, big deal. And like somebody else mentioned, your last attack is at -15 so granting it from wish must be perfectly reasonable, right? Well, if it isn't a big deal because the last attack is so worthless, then why complain about it in the first place? Would you like to know why? Because, you know, I know, we all know, that 20 levels from now, that last attack won't be so worthless.

I'm not elitist. I just see someone that has lost sight of the game.

Let me try and put this into perspective for you. Ever seen that little kid in toys-r'-us, standing in the isles screaming, "I want it! I want it! I want it!", well, there you go.

I'm perfectly reasonable in working with my player's requests, but this one just isn't worth it.

Point 1) If the last attack isn't a big deal to get from a wish because the attack itself is so worthless, then you won't care if you don't get it, right? I mean, if it's so trivial, what does it matter? (Note: this is the same kind of logic a parent would put before that kid in toys-r'-us)
Point 2) If getting that +1 BAB increase is more important to you than your character and all of your character's amazing accomplishments that all culminated into him becoming powerful to epic proportions, something to be proud of, you've lost sight or you didn't have it to begin with.
Point 3) Weapons of Speed. Haste.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. Ya'll can have the soapbox back now.

 

[rushlight]

"Point 1) If the last attack isn't a big deal to get from a wish because the attack itself is so worthless, then you won't care if you don't get it, right? I mean, if it's so trivial, what does it matter?"

Well, I can't presume to speak for the player, but perhaps that's the way he envisions his character. Maybe he thinks his character is some sort of Legolas type guy, and that's what he was looking for. Or perhaps he just likes rolling the dice. More likely he had planned on getting his 4th attack on his 21st level and just found out that it wasn't possible by the ELH rules, and was looking for another way to get it. Any way it goes, it isn't all that big of a deal. I think that the 4th attack IS trivial. In fact, from my experience (and I've been playing 3e since it came out) the last attack (when you get several attacks) hits about 10% of the time, regardless of level.

"Point 2) If getting that +1 BAB increase is more important to you than your character and all of your character's amazing accomplishments that all culminated into him becoming powerful to epic proportions, something to be proud of, you've lost sight or you didn't have it to begin with."

I don't know if you are directly involved in the game in question, but unless you are the player in question I don't think you can tell if he's "lost sight". Each of us plays D&D for different reasons, and there is no "correct" path in the game. The only important question is this: Does the +1 BAB imbalance the game? Personally I think that at 1st level it might be. At 21st level not at all. There's so many ways to counter +1 BAB at 21st level it's mind boggling.

Last, you said: ", your last attack is at -15 so granting it from wish must be perfectly reasonable, right? Well, if it isn't a big deal because the last attack is so worthless, then why complain about it in the first place? Would you like to know why? Because, you know, I know, we all know, that 20 levels from now, that last attack won't be so worthless."

Well, let's examine that. Say our guy gets his +1 BAB and advances to level 41 (20 levels from now). I don't know the detals of character so I'll make some reasonable assumptions. He probably had a dex of around 22 at 21st level. Assume he increased his dex at every chance (every other epic level I believe). That gives him a bonus of +11. He's probably got a +5 (it might go higher in the ELH, I'm not sure). Let's not forget his "Epic bonus" to hit of +10. Let's see, that's +1 BAB (the gimme), +11 dex, +10 Epic bonus, and +5 weapon. Let's give him a +20 "circumstance" bonus to cover whatever else might be going on. That's a final attack bonus of +47 to attack, assuming my public school math holds up. Alright, that's alot. Let's see what that can do. Looking through the ELH I found a monster comparably even to a 41st level party: the Mature Adult Prismatic Dragon with a CR of 43. A few higher but close enough. It has an AC of 71! That means our massive attack of +47 still needs a roll of 20 to even have a chance! (Assuming of course that you play natural 20 always hits. If you don't then you still missed, having only an attack of 67...) Spending 5000 XP for a 5% chance to thwack something isn't unbalancing in my book.

Of course all this changes if you aren't fighting monsters of comparable CR. If all you are doing is hunting down peasants, owlbears and kobalds at 21st (or 41st) level then I think the campagain has more issues than just a +1 BAB.

Put simply, when fighting a monster of comparable CR, you should have around a 50% chance to hit with stats and weapons and other bonues figured in. When you subtract 15 from that roll, almost every time your chance to hit drops to 5 or 10%. Personally, I wouldn't spend 5000 XP for a 5% chance to hit, not if I was level 10, 21 or 51. Let's face it, this player isn't looking for some extreme advantage and the math bears that out. It seems like he has a vision of his guy and he's trying to achieve it.

 

[kreynolds]

perhaps that's the way he envisions his character. Maybe he thinks his character is some sort of Legolas type guy, and that's what he was looking for.

If that were the case, he should have stuck with fighter/ranger/tempest, but he didn't. It's like crying and whining over the fact that you just bought a chocolate icecream cone, when what you really wanted was vanilla, but you forgot.

Or perhaps he just likes rolling the dice.

He can roll the dice all he wants. I still wouldn't give him the increase to his BAB. That's what leveling is for.

More likely he had planned on getting his 4th attack on his 21st level and just found out that it wasn't possible by the ELH rules, and was looking for another way to get it. Any way it goes, it isn't all that big of a deal.

You're absolutely right. One extra attack isn't a big deal, so why bother throwing a fit about it?

I think that the 4th attack IS trivial.

The only people I know that argue this much over something so trivial are those on medication and wear funny little jackets most of the time.

In fact, from my experience (and I've been playing 3e since it came out) the last attack (when you get several attacks) hits about 10% of the time, regardless of level.

This only further proves my point. Why make such a big deal out of something that is apparently "trivial"?

I don't know if you are directly involved in the game in question

No.

but unless you are the player in question I don't think you can tell if he's "lost sight".

It's a theory. I didn't say I knew him.

Each of us plays D&D for different reasons, and there is no "correct" path in the game.

Exactly. Maybe he should find a group that wouldn't mind.

The only important question is this: Does the +1 BAB imbalance the game? Personally I think that at 1st level it might be. At 21st level not at all. There's so many ways to counter +1 BAB at 21st level it's mind boggling.

I'm sure that would change the first time a spellcaster popped you with 4 more swings than usuall because his BAB was increased and he has two speed weapons.

Well, let's examine that. Say our guy gets his +1 BAB and advances to level 41 (20 levels from now). I don't know the detals of character so I'll make some reasonable assumptions. He probably had a dex of around 22 at 21st level. Assume he increased his dex at every chance (every other epic level I believe). That gives him a bonus of +11. He's probably got a +5 (it might go higher in the ELH, I'm not sure). Let's not forget his "Epic bonus" to hit of +10. Let's see, that's +1 BAB (the gimme), +11 dex, +10 Epic bonus, and +5 weapon. Let's give him a +20 "circumstance" bonus to cover whatever else might be going on. That's a final attack bonus of +47 to attack, assuming my public school math holds up. Alright, that's alot. Let's see what that can do. Looking through the ELH I found a monster comparably even to a 41st level party: the Mature Adult Prismatic Dragon with a CR of 43. A few higher but close enough. It has an AC of 71! That means our massive attack of +47 still needs a roll of 20 to even have a chance! (Assuming of course that you play natural 20 always hits. If you don't then you still missed, having only an attack of 67...) Spending 5000 XP for a 5% chance to thwack something isn't unbalancing in my book.

1) Spending XP for a crappy attack is not the point. Have you ever noticed that you don't spend xp to gain a level? When you spend XP, you get something in return for delaying your next level up, which ironically, comes with many things, and one of which is, you guessed it, and increase in your BAB.

2) Once again, if it's such a trivial attack, why throw a fit?

Of course all this changes if you aren't fighting monsters of comparable CR. If all you are doing is hunting down peasants, owlbears and kobalds at 21st (or 41st) level then I think the campagain has more issues than just a +1 BAB.

Or if you're defending a stronghold from a thousand orcs (no pun intended).

Put simply, when fighting a monster of comparable CR, you should have around a 50% chance to hit with stats and weapons and other bonues figured in. When you subtract 15 from that roll, almost every time your chance to hit drops to 5 or 10%. Personally, I wouldn't spend 5000 XP for a 5% chance to hit, not if I was level 10, 21 or 51.

There's that "trivial attack" thing again.

Let's face it, this player isn't looking for some extreme advantage and the math bears that out.

I don't know what he's looking for that's so important that he feels it necessary to alter the core rules of the class and leveling system.

It seems like he has a vision of his guy and he's trying to achieve it.

Apparently a few classes too late.

 

[Arravis]

All I have to say is thank god for Rule 0. D&D=game. I play games for fun and for my friends to have fun. Not only that, it's not Warhammer or chess where every move needs to be carefully strategized. A character career doesn't need to be a tight shute that you must follow at all costs or you can't achieve your personal goals and visions. It was a simple question and a simple goal that he asked and he wanted to see if there was a reasonable and balanced way to achieve those goals.

Why you felt it was necessary to treat this person with contempt, I have no clue. Anyway, I don't see that person "crying and whining". I try to treat all the fellows on here with respect and I assume that they are all fairly intelligent people.

And I agree with several of the posters here. The chracter was created without knowledge of the effects of the ELH and the player need not be able to achieve his goals for it. I'm not saying those goals should be easily achieved, but they should be reasonably achiavable. The whole "you should have thought about your epic levels 15 levels ago" seems overly harsh.

 

[kreynolds]

D&D=game. I play games for fun and for my friends to have fun.

I agree.

Why you felt it was necessary to treat this person with contempt, I have no clue.

Not contempt. Possible disappointment. I don't know the guy. Like I already stated, this is just a theory.

Anyway, I don't see that person "crying and whining". I try to treat all the fellows on here with respect and I assume that they are all fairly intelligent people.

And I agree with several of the posters here. The chracter was created without knowledge of the effects of the ELH and the player need not be able to achieve his goals for it. I'm not saying those goals should be easily achieved, but they should be reasonably achiavable.

Of course, there are always exceptions.

Really, it all boils down to this. Someone asked could you do it, the answer is no, and now the thread has degraded into "But that's not fair! I didn't know!". Before, it was just a question about the rules, now it's about throwing a temper tantrum.

The whole "you should have thought about your epic levels 15 levels ago" seems overly harsh.

I don't think it's harsh. Now, planning really far ahead and screwing the pooch, finding out that you messed up the math and you can't achieve what you want, that's harsh. Believe me. I know. I messed up a two-weapon fighter I had one time, just by taking 1 level of rogue too many. I really dig the character though, so I'll just suck it up and keep playing him. You see, the sheet isn't the heart of my character.

*sniff* I almost made myself cry. *sniff*

 

[Arravis]

Just different styles I suppose. As a DM I'm much more interested in entertaining my players then anything else. This doesn't mean I'm a push over or "weak", there are some things I don't bend on, but something like this seems fairly trivial and since it's important to the "vision" of the character of the player, I'd allow it in some form or other after some work.

 

[kreynolds]

Just different styles I suppose.

Probably.

As a DM I'm much more interested in entertaining my players then anything else.

Same here, except when something makes my job too difficult, thus taking away any fun I have, or when something is just downright rediculous. The latter doesn't happen often at all.

This doesn't mean I'm a push over or "weak", there are some things I don't bend on, but something like this seems fairly trivial and since it's important to the "vision" of the character of the player, I'd allow it in some form or other after some work.

See previous answer. (Incidentally, you don't sound like a pushover )

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I think for those who aren't just continuing the progression, using the best combo of 20 levels for saves and attacks.

Best for each stat? Or pick 20 and then make all the calculations?

Maybe I am just blowing a horn for a lost cause, but I think this method gives tremendous advantages to extreme multiclassing. I guess I wish a little more character focus were encouraged. <sigh>

If I were DM I would probably give the guy a break because the rules are new, but I am having a little trouble sympathizing for someone who had his heart set on a 4th attack but could see to picking up 11 "fighter" levels out of the first 20.

 

[fuindordm]

Blanket house rule it!

I dont' know if this will solve the problem, because I dont' know this character's class levels. But on the House Rules forum people were talking about the following rule for multiclassers:

BAB = (good class levels)*1 + (avg. class levels)*0.75 + (bad class levels)*0.5

Saves = (good class levels)/2 + (bad class levels)/3, +2 if at least one of the character's classes has a good progression.

Round down in both cases.
This tends to boost BAB's slightly and avoid some of the obscenely high saves that you can get from stacking multiple classes. For example,

Jane is a Wiz5/Ranger3/Cleric2/Arcane Archer10.

Core rules: BAB = 2+3+1+10 = 16
House rule: BAB = 2.5+3+1.5+10 = 17
Core saves: Fort = 1+3+3+7 = +14
Refl = 1+1+0+7 = +9
Will = 4+1+3+3 = +11
House saves: Fort = 1.67 + 1.5 + 1 + 5 + 2 = +11
Refl = 1.67 + 1 + .67 + 5 + 2 = +10
Will = 2.5 + 1 + 1 + 3.33 + 2 = +9

The principle effect is to lower multiclasser saving throws and avoid screwing people who take more than one class with +0 BAB at level one. It may not make a difference for your player, however, and some would say that the high saves of multiclasses is a valuable advantage that at least offsets their lack of cosmic power.

Otherwise, I would certainly allow a wish to raise BAB by 1, up to a limit of +5 (parallel to the limit of +5 intrinsic bonus to ability scores) and under no circumstances allowing more than 4 attacks per round.

--Ben